Friday, October 9, 2009

Shot Out of the Canon

Ok, everyone, haul out your textbooks and fire up the search engines; we're diving into material that is not widely available like the Bible is. Let's talk about the "Early Church".

Now, the "Early Church" is an extremely broad topic, so I'm going to narrow it down a bit for this discussion. If there are other aspects that you'd like to explore, let me know and we'll create a separate blog entry for it. The particular topic I want to focus on right now is the writings and teachings of people that were present during the first hundred or so years after Jesus' death and how we respond to these teachings.

Let me set the stage a bit. Jesus, when He ascended, left behind a group of Jewish men known as "The 12 Apostles" (although there were only 11 of them left). In Mark 16:15, He says to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." So these guys go out and start making more disciples. This group starts growing and growing and eventually becomes known as the Christian "church". At some point around AD 45, about 15 years after Christ's death, the group of people following the oral teachings of the Apostles is really too big to manage by such a small group of disciples, so they are inspired to start writing this stuff down. This way, the church doesn't stray off track while the diciples are away.

So, out of this time period, a number of books, letters, and various writings are generated by a number of different people. Some of these people were direct eyewitnesses, like Matthew and John, some were people who interviewed eyewitnesses, such as Luke, while still others were people who came to the movement through different means, like Paul and his conversion.

Now, once written, these books and letters would circulate from church to church. And as time went on, more writings appeared. The problem was that, as time passed, the people who were direct eyewitnesses died and some of the new writings started to stray away from the original teachings.

So, a problem faced the Church; of all this written material and oral traditions, which ones were true to the teachings of Jesus and which ones had strayed off the path? It made sense to collect all the trustworthy writings together in one book, like the Jews had done with the Talmud, but which ones? The debate raged on for a long time, with several groups and individuals over the years taking a stand on which writings should be included and which ones should not. Finally, between 1545-1563, the Council of Trent met (for 18 years! And I thought meetings at work took forever!) to hammer out the set of books that you will get if you walk into a bookstore and buy a Bible off the shelf.

But the question remains, what do we do with the stuff that was left out? Beyond that, what do we do with the ideas that were never actually written down, but passed down by word of mouth over 2000 years, like an extremely long version of the game 'Telephone'?

Growing up in a Protestant background, I developed an attitude of "If it's not in the Bible, then it's not trustworthy. Any oral tradition cannot be relied on; it must be discarded." However, I've discovered a weakness in my logic. Here it is: The Bible, as we know it today, was assembled by a group of men. Let me restate that. A group of men made the decision on which books were included. The key question to ask, here, is how did these men make that decision? What was their guide? It's not like they could use the Bible as their guide; it wasn't fully formed yet.

Are the writings of other people that didn't make it in still useful for learning about God? What if one of those non-Biblical sources teach something that isn't discussed in the Bible? How do we trust it? Who's trustworthy and who's not?

88 comments:

D.L. said...

There's a fellow here that seems to think God had a hand in it - that it wasn't just men.

http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-of-Scripture.html

Carlus Henry said...

Weston,

I am mostly posting so I can get the email updates, but a couple of quick thoughts....

At some point around AD 45, about 15 years after Christ's death, the group of people following the oral teachings of the Apostles is really too big to manage by such a small group of disciples, so they are inspired to start writing this stuff down. This way, the church doesn't stray off track while the diciples are away.

I don't agree that the purpose of the writings were to keep the church on track, explicitly. Of course, there were problems within the church, but each letter was addressing the problems of a specific church location. It was not written in a style that was to keep the whole Church in line. It was not even written in such a way where the authors said, "Make sure you distribute this and read it every day".

If it was written in order to keep the whole church in line, then you would think that there would be writings / instructions on how to conduct church services, or the appropriate age for baptism. In other words, it would read more like a Lowe's Instructional Home Improvement Guide rather than something that was addressed to a particular church addressing a particular concern.

Finally, between 1545-1563, the Council of Trent met (for 18 years! And I thought meetings at work took forever!) to hammer out the set of books that you will get if you walk into a bookstore and buy a Bible off the shelf.

The Council of Trent, was actually the result of the Reformation. During the Reformation, books were thrown out of the canon. The Church responded to this by dogmatically re-defining which books belong in the Bible and which ones don't.

Now, let's stop and think about this.... Reformation occurred around 1500A.D. or so. So what was the official list of the books of the bible prior to this, and when did it get defined?

The actual canon of scripture was defined in 382 by Pope Damasus at the Council of Rome. This same set of books is what was viewed as canonical for 1200 years or so, until Martin Luther and the Reformation removed some of them....

This is the reason why Catholic Bibles are bigger than Protestant Bibles...

God bless..

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

+1

Weston said...

There's a fellow here that seems to think God had a hand in it - that it wasn't just men.

Don't be silly. Unless God Himself came down in some form or other, walked into the Council of Trent, and said, "Hey guys, this book, this book, and this book need to be in. Have fun! See you later!" it is a fact that the hands of men physically assembled the Bible into the collection of books that it is today.

I'm fine with the idea that God guided these men in the decision of which books to choose, but I would ask you this: By what method did God guide these men in their decisions?

The Scriptures? Is that possible? They were in the very process of forming the New Testament. I could possibly see the Jewish Torah/Talmud as guidance for them, but that doesn't give credence to the books that teach about Jesus and who He was.

The Holy Spirit? May I refer you over to our discussion of the leading of the Holy Spirit to realize how error-prone this process can be. If this is the case, then we must all accept all the books of the Apocrypha that the Catholics use, because I'm sure some Pope at some point decreed that the Holy Spirit "told" him that they need to be included. And how can we argue that? For that matter, let's include the Book of Mormon in Canon, too, because "Holy Spirit" led Joseph Smith to write them too, right?

Bottom line: I can surely accept that "God had a hand in it", but I need to know how He guided these men in order to know whether to trust their judgment.

D.L. said...

I guess you just need to do some homework on the subject. I figure if God inspired the scriptures in the first place by breathing into those writes what He wanted written (2 Tim 3:16 et al), He was pretty capable of guiding men to put together what He wanted put together for the Book. Maybe I just have a picture in my Spirit of a God who is big enough to handle it. That's been my concept of God since I was a little fellow.

Of course if you think a bunch of guys just wrote what they were thinking on their own, without God having anything to do with it, You might have yourself a little quandry.

Believe God inspired scripture itself, it's not a stretch to believe he put the collection of books together too.You don't really have to know the exact how, I don't reckon.

I've done a bit of studying about it myself,and I can sure see god's hand in it and don't need Him to tell me all the details.

Anonymous said...

"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Seems like He had a BIG hand in it... ;-)

Be back in a bit to throw in my two cents... thanks Weston.

Weston said...

You're completely missing my point. I'm not disputing at all that God inspired the writers and had a hand in collecting the writings into the Bible. What I'm saying is that we need to understand that process. It can't just be some "mystery" that we can't understand.

Why do I say this? Consider the Book of Mormon. I assume that everyone here does not consider it part of the Canon of Scripture. Why not? What is it about the Book of Mormon that makes it incompatible with the Old and New Testament? Please understand, I'm not advocating including it; I'm saying that there must exist a good reason why we dismiss it, and we need to know what that is. If the only response we have is that some old guys a long time ago said so, then how is that any defense against the Mormon beliefs? We tell them that the writers of the Bible were inspired and they will say to us, so is the Book of Mormon! In fact, it was delivered to Joseph Smith directly by an angel! You don't get more authentic than that, right?

Weston said...

I don't agree that the purpose of the writings were to keep the church on track, explicitly.

You're right. No one really knows the true reasons they decided to write. That's mostly speculation on my part in order to set the scene. They had reasons why they needed to get it written down, rather than rely completely on word of mouth.

This is the reason why Catholic Bibles are bigger than Protestant Bibles...

Yup. Part of this discussion is to explore the reasons as to why the Catholics chose to include certain books and Protestants throw them out. Apparently, there's a dispute on whether the books were inspired by God or not. Doesn't that concern anyone besides me?

Anonymous said...

"You're completely missing my point." Sorry Weston.. I didn't, I just didn't have time before and flipped something out there. I understand why you're doing this and I very much appreciate it. I want to know the same thing. I still don't have the time I need yet, but I will later tonight... very good topic.

Weston said...

Sorry Weston.. I didn't, I just didn't have time before and flipped something out there.

Sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were echoing what D.L. was saying. I look forward to your thoughts!

Carlus Henry said...

Weston,

Apparently, there's a dispute on whether the books were inspired by God or not. Doesn't that concern anyone besides me?

Yes. I am very concerned about it.

I understand the history behind it, and I am willing to share...

Martin Luther was about 3 steps away from becoming a Catholic Saint. He identified some things that needed to change about the Church, or practices of some of the priests and bishops...namely the selling of indulgences.

Admittedly, indulgences is Catholic Theology 201, and it would take some time to explain, and we can do that at another time, but sticking with the topic....selling indulgences is not official catholic teaching...yet some priests (Tetzel) did just that. It was a heresy plain and simple - selling of indulgences...not indulgences.

Martin Luther recognized that the selling of indulgences was wrong. In this..he was justified. Unfortunately, he did not stop there. He said, "Since the selling of indulgences is wrong, then there must not be a need for indulgences at all, and indulgences are wrong. Also if indulgences are wrong, then purgatory is not part of the divine revelation either...therefore the Church has been led astray into false doctine, there is no pope..."...yadda, yadda, yadda.

Of course he had a problem. There were books in the Old Testament that defended and explained the doctrine of purgatory. Specifically 2 Maccabees.

Having a good Catholic education, he knew that there was another Council that occurred, after the Ascencion of Jesus. This council was held by the Jews. It is called the Council of Jamnia. There....they codified the books of the Old Testament. This set of Old Testament is the set that he decided to use, because it does not contain what you would call the Apocraphyl books, and what I would term as the Deuterocannonical books...

Carlus Henry said...

(continued)...

The question then must be asked. Did the Council of Jamnia...a Jewish Council have jurisdiction to dictate the canon of Scripture that should be used by the Christians? Or...instead, did the Christian Church, at the Council of Rome, have the jurisdiction?

Also...there are Ethopian Jews, to this day, that still share the same common OT books as the Catholic Bible....

So, that is it in a nutshell (the condensed version at least). The historical record. Fast forward about 500 years, and here we are...with two different sets of OT canon. One set has been with the Christian Church since the inception, while the other is just 500 years old.

I hope I did history justice with that brief overview....

God bless...

Anonymous said...

First of all Wes, I do agree with what DL said, I think that link he left is very useful, and hope you check it out =)

There is so much to this I'm not sure where to start. I'm not one to get into why this book and why not that book... I'll leave that for some of the others. The first thing I will go into, is WHY I believe it is indeed the inspired word of God,not just a bunch of guys writing stuff down. I think that may be an important factor in this discussion.

I'm going to list some scripture for you to look at as I make these points. IF you need clarification on why I chose a particular scripture let me know and i'll explain. As far as being inspired or not there is really no sitting on the fence with that one. Either it was just a bunch of guys writing a bunch of stuff that made a nice book, or it is God's Word and instruction book completely inspired and written by Him through the authors.

Revelation 19:9, John says "These are true words of God". Look at some of the passages from the Old Testament writers... they claimed their message was from God. Isaiah 1:2, Jeremiah 10:1-2, Ezekiel 1:3, Hosea 1 :1-2, Johan 1:1, Michah 1:1, Zechariah 1:1. Many more, we hear over and over again, The Lord has spoken, Hear the word which the Lord speaks, Thus says the Lord....

New Testament we find the same thing:
1 Corinthians 14:27, Ephesians 3:3-5 (The things Paul wrote were made know to him by revelation. These things were not known, but revealed by the Spirit to the Prophets and Apostles) Our faith kicks in at some point, you either believe or you don't.
1 Thess. 4:15, 1 Timothy 4:1..... Many more.

Then there are the scriptures where men claim that what other writers wrote was from God.
Matthew 1:22, Matthew 2:15, Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25, Hebrews 1:1-2... God spoke many times to the people by prophets, now He has spoken to us by His Son. Matthew 15:4 is important as Jesus Himself confirmed that Scriptures were from God.

Then we need to also look at the fact that the writers themselves denied they wrote by human wisdom.

Look at what would happen if they did... Jeremiah 14:14...Ezekiel 3:26-27, Matthew 10:19-20, 1 Corinthians 2:4-5...Galatians 1:8-12, The gospel did not come from man but was revealed from Jesus. For them to preach a message that is human in origin is not a good thing.2 Peter 1:20-21, Prophecy never came by man, only the chosen men who were moved by the Holy Spirit. Same with His Word.

In fact, the writers were prohibited from adding anything human. Going back to the OT, Exodus 24:3-8, God's will included all that was written and the people agreed to keep it all. It must have been from Him, not man. Deuteronomy 17:18-20, the king was suppose to copy the law and keep all that was written.

There is so much more to this, but I wanted to just touch on the fact that the Bible is indeed inspired and written as He wanted it, by whom He wanted.

As far as the process, I'll hit on that tomorrow.

D.L. said...

A couple more links with what seem to be well written and trustworthy sources for the subject:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/canon.cfm#intro

http://bible.org/seriespage/bible-holy-canon-scripture

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/canon_bruce.pdf

http://www.girs.com/library/theology/syllabus/canon.html

The bottom line here might be that we mortals might not be able to understand all the little "how" details, but we learn what we can learn and with the help of the Holy Spirit (for genuine believers)We trust the rest to God for those things that He has not revealed with all the details.

If you need to know all the details, it might cause severe brain cramps because all you're gonna get are what other people think are the little details, if they are really in God's doman and not ours.

Don't take my word for it or anyone elses. Do your own research. You will be able to filter through biases and detrmine what is sound and what is not.

Weston said...

Carlus, thanks for helping out with history. You've brought up an absolutely perfect example for this discussion, 2 Maccabees. However, I have a slight issue with the way it was presented. You're mixing fact with speculation. You're implying, as the Catholic church does (even the Wikipedia page on 2 Maccabees contains the same implication), that the reason that Martin Luther rejected the book of 2 Maccabees is that it simply did not fit with his theology. Unless Martin Luther said this specifically, then this is speculation and you are presuming to speak for Luther and understand his motives.

So, naturally, I asked the question, what were Luther's stated motives? He had to give some sort of reason for leaving the Apocryphal books out. I highly doubt that he just said, "Yeah.. they just didn't work for me, so I just chucked them". I stumbled upon an article that talked about this. From what I gathered from the article, here are Luther's reasons for omitting 2 Maccabees:

1. It does not have a Hebrew version.
2. It contradicts 1 Maccabees in its description of King Antiochus.
3. It contains fables that destroy its credibility.
4. It appears that the book has no single author, but was pieced together out of many books.
5. The Jews exclude it from their canon.

To me these seem like much more logical reasons for excluding it from the Bible, rather than it just didn't fit his ideas. In addition, aside from the subjective opinion in #3, they are all verifiable facts.

To bring everyone up to speed on this book, let me add a few other tidbits of information that I dug up in my research:

1. This book, if included, would be considered part of the Old Testament.
2. The Second Book of Maccabees (as it is called) is not a "sequel" to 1 Maccabees, rather, it is more like a second version; retelling certain events in a different order and manner.
3. It was written in Greek, with no Hebrew version. (This is partly why the Jews exclude it from their canon.)
4. It was written in Egypt around 124 BC, around 94 years after Jesus' death.
5. The author is not the original author of the material, rather he is abridging a 5-volume work by Jason of Cyrene, who was a Jew.
6. It contains nothing pertaining to Jesus or Christianity. It presents a history of the Jewish revolt against a Greek king and a Syrian general.
7. During his telling of this revolt, the author draws moral teachings out of the history to make a point about things like God's support of their effort.
8. The book was originally part of the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, but it was not removed when the Jews removed it from their canon.
9. Another reason that the Jews rejected the book is because it talks about making offerings for the dead and this is "without parallel in Jewish literature, and nothing is otherwise known of such offerings being made at the Temple in Jerusalem" (See here for more)

So, here's the big question; is this book inspired by God?

You may ask, why is this important? It's just one book. Well, as Carlus alluded to, it is incredibly important for the Catholic church because it contains the majority of the support for ideas such as prayers to the dead, purgatory, and indulgences. If this book is excluded from the canon, the support for these ideas disappears.

P.S. I'm trying to avoid getting into a discussion on those topics because we'll save that for a future discussion. But if you're interested in reading the verses in 2 Maccabees that are pertinent to those Catholic ideas, as I was, go here and read chapter 12. The Revised Standard version is easier to read and doesn't have as many typos and errors that the other versions that I found online.

Weston said...

Thanks for the links D.L! I found some interesting stuff there. Of particular interest to me was The Bible: The Holy Canon of Scripture from bible.org.

The part that interested me was the "Tests of Canonicity" that they described. Finally, I'm getting something solid to rely on! I'm going to summarize them here so that we can discuss it.

A. Old Testament Tests of Canonicity
1. Did the book indicate God was speaking through the writer and that it was considered authoritative?
2. Was the human author recognized as a spokesman of God, that is, was he a prophet or did he have the prophetic gift?
3. Was the book historically accurate? Did it reflect a record of actual facts?

B. New Testament Tests of Canonicity
1. Did the book give internal evidence of inspiration, of being God breathed?
2. Was it of proper spiritual character?
3. Did it edify the church?
4. Was it doctrinally accurate?
5. Was the author an apostle or did he have the endorsement of an apostle?
6. On the whole, was the book accepted by the church at large?

A couple of my own thoughts on these:

B4 seems like it could lead to circular reasoning. If the Bible is the sole source of doctrine (which is true for Protestants, untrue for Catholics) how can it not be consistent with itself? Does this mean that a doctrine promoted in one book should always be supported by another, different book?

B6 seems like the same thing I'm always getting accused of; "truth by consensus".

Let's take a few "extra-biblical" writings and hold them up to these tests.

2 Maccabees (Old Testament)
1. Fail. The author does not claim inspiration from God.
2. Fail. The author is unknown.
3. Maybe. It depends on whether 1 Maccabees or 2 Maccabees contains the accurate history.

Score: 0/3

The Book of Mormon (New Testament)
1. Pass. The author claims that the revelation was given to him by an angel.
2. Pass? What is "proper spiritual character"?
3. Pass? 'Edify' means to 'instruct or improve (someone) morally or intellectually.' Could be disputed.
4. Undetermined. It adds doctrines not found in the rest of the Bible.
5. Fail. Written many, many years after the disciples died, and written on a different continent.
6, Fail. Accepted only by a relatively small subset of Christ-followers.

Score: 3/6

D.L. said...

Statements on the Apocrypha from Reformation Days

Luther Bible (1534). Title to Apocrypha: "APOCRYPHA, that is, Books which are not to be esteemed like the Holy Scriptures, and yet which are useful and good to read."

Coverdale Bible (1535). Title to Apocrypha: "APOCRYPHA: The books and treatises which among the Fathers of old are not reckoned to be of like authority with the other books of the Bible, neither are they found in the Canon of Hebrew."

Geneva Bible (1560). Preface: "The books that follow in order after the Prophets unto the New Testament, are called Apocrypha, that is, books which were not received by a common consent to be read and expounded publicly in the Church, neither yet served to prove any point of Christian religion save in so much as they had the consent of the other scriptures called canonical to confirm the same, or rather whereon they were grounded: but as books proceeding from godly men they were received to be read for the advancement and furtherance of the knowledge of history and for the instruction of godly manners: which books declare that at all times God had an especial care of His Church, and left them not utterly destitute of teachers and means to confirm them in the hope of the promised Messiah, and also witness that those calamities that God sent to his Church were according to his providence, who had both so threatened by his prophets, and so brought it to pass, for the destruction of their enemies and for the trial of his children."

Decree of the Council of Trent (1546). "The holy ecumenical and general Council of Trent . . . following the example of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates all the books of the Old and New Testament . . . and also the traditions pertaining to faith and conduct . . . with an equal sense of devotion and reverence . . . If, however, any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have by custom been read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be accursed."

Articles of Religion of the Church of England (1563). Sixth Article: "In the name of Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church. . . And the other books (as Jerome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners: but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine."

Westminster Confession (1647). Chapter 1 § 3: "The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings."

"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."

Jerome -Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon

In case you want to do some of your own research, a couple informative sites:

http://virtualreligion.net/iho/1_macc.html

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm

http://watch.pair.com/apocrypha.html

Watch, this will probably be ignored........

Weston said...

Watch, this will probably be ignored........

I assume you're speaking about Carlus. To his defense, the sources you quoted are most likely not considered by the Catholic church to be authoritative, just like there are sources that they would quote that we would not consider authoritative. So then it comes down to who's ideas do you subscribe to, Luther or the Pope? Who's got the authority to include or exclude these books?

In my mind, the books in the Old Testament specifically concern themselves with Jewish history so the nation of Israel has jurisdiction on what is accurate Jewish history. It would be like Great Britain trying to come in and tell the United States how certain events in the Revolutionary War happened. It's our history; we lived it; we know what's correct.

The Jews have strong reasons to want to keep 2 Maccabees books in their canon; it describes the origin of Hanukkah more accurately than any other source. Yet, despite this compelling reason, they chose to reject it. This speaks volumes to me.

D.L. said...

I didn't select any links because of a personal agenda - I just think the topic very interesting and am a fan of doing research. I hate 'agenda' driven material and usually discard it.

Anonymous said...

Ummm was it something I said? *** Gulp***

Weston said...

Ummm was it something I said?

What do you mean?

Anonymous said...

Just waiting for you to reply or let me know which direction you want to go... didn't know if you had had time to look at some of what I wrote last night, or if it was the wrong direction etc. Lemme know =)

Carlus Henry said...

Wes,

Unless Martin Luther said this specifically, then this is speculation and you are presuming to speak for Luther and understand his motives.

Not too much time....but...

I am so great an enemy to the second book of the Maccabees, and to Esther, that I wish they had not come to us at all, for they have too many heathen unnaturalities.

(Table-Talk, #XXIV, p. 13)


Table-Talk is a book written by Martin Luther....

No speculation or presumption there....

Weston said...

No speculation or presumption there....

I don't follow your logic. How does this quote by Luther demonstrate that the only reason he removed those books was because he couldn't make them fit his theology?

Carlus Henry said...

Weston,

I don't follow your logic. How does this quote by Luther demonstrate that the only reason he removed those books was because he couldn't make them fit his theology?

My response had to do with regarding whether or not it was just pure speculation or presumption on my part, or that of Wikipedia, that he disagreed with the revelation contained within the books mentioned.

D.L. said...

Carlus,

And you know there was revelation in the books how? Is Luther the only one who had difficulties with them, or were there others?

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

I would say that we all struggle with the revelation contained within scripture, even the scripture the books that we (Catholic / Protestant) agree upon.

Carlus Henry said...

(continued)...

it gives no one the right to remove books from scripture just because we don't agree with the teachings that they support....

Anonymous said...

Triednotfried, I would take from the way the discussion is going that Wes is more interested in having the discussion of why certain books were included in the canonized scriptures, not whether it is, in fact, the inspired Word of God. I don't think anyone on here questions that.

I haven't done any homework yet to add to this discussion, but I have one question that might seem odd and out of place. Wes, is there a reason why you keep saying "Jesus' death" instead of "Jesus' resurrection"? It's happened three times now; once in your original post, twice in responses you've left for people. After Jesus died, He rose. After Jesus' resurrection, all this other stuff happened. I think it's important we always make that distinction.

Anonymous said...

Kara: Yeah, just trying to answer this "The key question to ask, here, is how did these men make that decision? What was their guide?" scripturally...

These guys can hash this out...

Weston said...

Wes, is there a reason why you keep saying "Jesus' death" instead of "Jesus' resurrection"?

No particular reason. For some reason whenever I see the abbreviation "A.D.", my brain always expands that to "After Death" instead of "Anno Domini". Also, "death" is shorter and easier to spell than "resurrection".

D.L. said...

Well, Wes has been provided a ahole bunch of links to some good references, that's for sure. I think the nature of the inspiration of scripture very important to the discussion about the Canon.

Carlus,

You sounded like you knew there was divine revelation or something in the books mentioned. So I asked how you knew that. There is a lot of evidence to the divine inspiration of 66 book canon within scripture itself. Just asking.

Weston said...

it gives no one the right to remove books from scripture just because we don't agree with the teachings that they support....

I agree. There are quite a few passages in the Bible that are inconvenient and would be easier if we could just cut them out; but we don't, because they bear the evidence of being inspired by God.

The problem is that I don't think Luther excluded those books simply because he didn't agree with the teaching; he gave reasons why the book did not appear to be inspired by God. Books that aren't inspired by God simply don't belong in the Canon.

I'd like to see someone address the claims he made, rather than simply casting doubt on Luther's motives. Even if he did it for all the wrong reasons, he could still be correct.

Deb and Kara, you're right; I'm not disputing that God inpires people to write His words down. I would say it's quite possible that many inspired writings didn't make it into the Bible. In fact, I would go so far as to say that God is still inspiring people to write even today. Calvin, C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, etc.

However, there must be a reason why we don't keep adding those recent writings to the Canon even though they might be inspired.

If we don't have well-defined "measuring stick" we won't know what to go by and what to ignore.

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

There is a lot of evidence to the divine inspiration of 66 book canon within scripture itself. Just asking.

No there is not. There is nothing within Scripture that says that 2 Chronicles or 1 Peter is inspired. Scripture did not come with a table of contents. If it did, then it would be evidence of which books was inspired and which ones were not.

...actually, it wouldn't because the question would still need to be answered about the inspiration of the book that contained the table of contents....

it's circular reasoning...no matter which way you put it.

Anonymous said...

"However, there must be a reason why we don't keep adding those recent writings to the Canon even though they might be inspired."

What about Revelation 22:18-19?
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

That might answer why we "ignore" recent writings, but I don't know that it answers how it was decided which books were added into the Bible. Also, I'm not sure that these verses were talking about the entire NT, or if it was just referring to the book of Revelation.

That's all I can add for now...

Carlus Henry said...

Weston,

The problem is that I don't think Luther excluded those books simply because he didn't agree with the teaching; he gave reasons why the book did not appear to be inspired by God.

Isn't this saying the same thing? He disagreed with the teaching, because he didn't believe the teachings to be correct. Therefore, he deemed them as not inspired by God.

Books that aren't inspired by God simply don't belong in the Canon.

I completely agree. As I am sure that you would also agree that books that are inspired by God, do belong in the canon.

If we don't have well-defined "measuring stick" we won't know what to go by and what to ignore.

I think that this is the major point here. You and I don't need to have a well defined measuring stick. Even if we did, that does not mean that we could still not be led into error. We might even come up with the Koran or Book of Mormon to be inspired, or we may come up with the idea that we have the best 'well defined measuring stick' and end up starting our own cult.

Instead, at some point, you have to trust the leading of the Holy Spirit. As it relates to the canon of Scripture, you can either trust the leading of the Holy Spirit that defined the canon in 382, or you trust the leading of the Holy Spirit that led Luther in 1500's. They contradict. One is right and one is wrong. (I won't even consider the alternative that neither is right, because that would imply that we are all doomed).

Correction: Luther did not remove the books. He placed those books into an appendix of Scripture. That appendix was printed with all Protestant Bibles until the 1800's - at which point and time, it was removed explicitly.

The amazing thing I think is if you were born between 300 - 1500A.D.....a span of 1200 years, we would not even be having this conversation.

Carlus Henry said...

Kara,

Also, I'm not sure that these verses were talking about the entire NT, or if it was just referring to the book of Revelation.


I would put my money that it was only talking about Revelation and not the entire Bible - not that adding to or taking away from the defined set of Scripture would be a good thing ;)

P.S. - at some point, I am still interested in hearing your thoughts about my 4 guys...Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons......I am sure we will have a chance to talk about it at some point.

Anonymous said...

Here is some more fun to add into the mix:

"New Testament Books which are now accepted by Christians, but which were for a time rejected, are Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.

Books now excluded from the canon, but which are found in some of the older manuscripts of the New Testament, are Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas, 1 Clement, 2 Clement, Paul’s Epistle to Laodiceans, Apostolic Constitutions.

Books accepted as canonical by some Jews, and for most part by the Greek and Roman Catholic churches, but rejected by the Protestants, are Baruch, Tobit, Judith, Book of Wisdom, Song of the Three Children, History of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Ecclesiasticus, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 5 Maccabees.

The only books of the bible which are accepted as divine by all Jews and all varieties of Christians are the first five books of the Old Testament: the Pentateuch."

Still studying...

Carlus Henry said...

triednotfried,

You mentioned Hebrews as being questionable. One of the main reasons why it was questionable is because of it's authorship. We still do not know to this day who wrote it. So....

Was the author an apostle or did he have the endorsement of an apostle?

Fail.

Also regarding the letters of Clement and the Shepherd of Hermes, those were actually read during the Mass in the Early Church as if it was inspired and scripture.

I love this stuff....I find it absolutely fascinating.

At the same time, some of the books that you mentioned, I am not familiar with, as a Catholic. But then, I looked them up, and realized that some of the "books" are actually expanded versions of Daniel and Esther. I had never heard of them listed that way before. Thanks for schoolin' me. hehehehe

D.L. said...

Wes,

I'm glad you found some useful information!

Carlus Henry said...

Kara, triednotfried, D.L....

Seems like we are all here....too bad we cannot get into a chat room or something....

C

Anonymous said...

I agree... this would go alot faster... I hate checkin' in and out... but... here's some more. By the way Carlus
I can almost hear that laugh of yours...LOL

"The Rev. Jeremiah Jones, a leading authority on the canon, says: "Justin Martyr, Clemens Alexandrinus, Tertullian, and the rest of the primitive writers were wont to approve and cite books which now all men know to be apocryphal." (Canon, p. 4).

Theodoret says that as late as the fifth century many churches used the Gospel of Tatian instead of the canonical Gospels. Gregory the Great, at the beginning of the seventh, and Alfric, at the close of the tenth century, accepted as canonical Paul’s Epistle to the Laodiceans.

Early in the fourth century the celebrated church historian, Eusebius, gave a list of the acknowledged and disputed books of the New Testament. The disputed books-- books which some accepted and others rejected-- were Hebrews, James, Second and Third John, Jude, Revelation, Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas, Acts of Paul, and Revelation of Peter.

Athanasius rejected Esther, and Epiphanius accepted the Epistle of Jeremiah. Cyril, Bishop of Jerusalem, and Gregory, Bishop of Constantinople, both rejected Revelation. Chrysostom, one of the greatest of church divines, and who gave to the sacred book of Christians its name, omitted ten books from his canon-- First and Second Chronicles, Esther, Job, and Lamentations, five books in the Old Testament; and Second Peter, Second and Third John, Jude, and Revelation, five books in the New Testament."

I know I'm complicating...but what the heck? Does it just depend on whose opinion you read???

Ok... back to lookig...

D.L. said...

I suppose you could say it depends on whch opinion uou read and you might get close to a good answer if you look for the widest and most objective opinions and steer clear of those with agendas, like needing stuff for doctrines not in the 66.

If however you've got a big enough God to have made sure the ones He inspired to be in the canon made it in. With a God that big, the 'didn't come with a table of contents so men had to figure it out all by themselves' argument falls kinda flat.

No offense Carlus, you didn't make it up, I know.

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

if you look for the widest and most objective opinions and steer clear of those with agendas

I can't stand the word agenda, like it is something negative. Everyone has an agenda. Everyone has a plan. If we were to steer clear of agendas, then we would have to steer clear of everything. This has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, it is just one of those terms that is misused a lot.

If however you've got a big enough God to have made sure the ones He inspired to be in the canon made it in. With a God that big, the 'didn't come with a table of contents so men had to figure it out all by themselves' argument falls kinda flat.

I completely agree. So, according to your logic, either God did not have a hand in the canon that has survived over 2000 years, or He only got involved 500 years ago during the Reformation.

D.L. said...

"So, according to your logic, either God did not have a hand in the canon that has survived over 2000 years, or He only got involved 500 years ago during the Reformation."

'My' logic? Not really.

2 Tim 3:16-17 drives my logic. In plain English my logic is this:

God divinely inspired scripture that He would also 'inspire', or ensure would be placed in the Canon.

Therefore His 'hand' in the canon was 'involved', at the vary latest, when a writer penned that which God inspired him to write.

What would be in the canon was in the mind of God long before that, since God's plan for the salvation of the remnant He would call out of fallen humanity to give to His Son existed before the foundation of the world.

Whenever, in terms of human chronological time, the canon was established, it existed in the mind of God before creation.

Concerning what happened in Church councils,or the involvement of men, that involvement was indeed a 'means' of establishing the Canon, however no council can take credit for the establishment of the Canon of scripture, any more than I could take credit for someone's salvation because he/she received Christ as Savior and Lord after I presented the gospel message to that person.

So that's my logic.

D.L. said...

"The New Testament books did not become authoritative for the Church because they were formally included in a canonical list; on the contrary, the Church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired, recognising their innate worth and general apostolic authority, direct or indirect. The first ecclesiastical councils to classify the canonical books were both held in North Africa — at Hippo Regius in 393 and at Carthage in 397 — but what these councils did was not to impose something new upon the Christian communities but to codify what was already the general practice of those communities."

F.F. Bruce

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

God divinely inspired scripture that He would also 'inspire', or ensure would be placed in the Canon.


Of course He did. This is not the question. The question is when. Did He inspire the canon that was with the Church from 382 A.D. on....or did He inspire the New Canon that started in 1500's?

I agree with pretty much everything that you have stated in your last post.

I don't however, agree with Mr. Bruce. I would also say that history doesn't agree with him either. Mr. Bruce says:

on the contrary, the Church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired, recognising their innate worth and general apostolic authority, direct or indirect.

??? That does not compute. Just use the accurate information provided by triednotfried. She has shown that historically, there was not this agreed upon inspired books. Some thought that Clement's letters and Shepherd of Hermes was inspired, but obviously there were not deemed inspired by the Church councils. So if that is the case, I don't understand how Mr. Bruce can possibly say:

The first ecclesiastical councils to classify the canonical books were both held in North Africa — at Hippo Regius in 393 and at Carthage in 397 — but what these councils did was not to impose something new upon the Christian communities but to codify what was already the general practice of those communities.

This does not compute since some of the Churches were reading the before mentioned books as Scripture. Yet after the council, they ceased to regard them as scripture. Therefore the councils did in fact impose something new on those churches that thought they were scripture.

Either way, we can clearly see that the operation of the Holy Spirit occurs through the Church. The New Testament, which both Catholics and Protestants do agree on the canon, was divinely inspired and divinely identified through the instrument of the divinely created Church. That is the assurance that we have the canon is correct. God preserved His Word through the Church.

D.L. said...

So the guys in Rome were sort of like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval? What an odd idea.

Weston said...

at some point, I am still interested in hearing your thoughts about my 4 guys...Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons

Sorry I didn't do very good job of launching us into the direction in order to include them into the discussion. When I sat down to write the starter blog entry, I didn't know what aspects of those people that you wanted to talk about. What did you want to talk about in regards to them?

The amazing thing I think is if you were born between 300 - 1500A.D.....a span of 1200 years, we would not even be having this conversation.

Actually, we would; as TNF has pointed out, it would just be about different books. I don't think there has ever been a time where everyone has been in complete agreement about which books are inspired.

So, according to your logic, either God did not have a hand in the canon that has survived over 2000 years, or He only got involved 500 years ago during the Reformation.

2000 years is debatable. In the case of 2 Maccabees, here's a timeline as best as I've been able to figure out from research:

~300 BC - 200 BC The Torah (first 5 books) is translated into the Septuagint. Scholars continue to translate the rest of the books.
161 BC - Defeat of Nicanor
~100 BC - Maccabees 1 written
~100 BC - Jason the Cyrene starts writing his missing 5 volumes
~50 BC - 50 AD - An unknown author starts abridging Jason's work into 2 Maccabees
~100 AD - The Jews had removed 2 Macc from their canon.

Allowing the widest time range, 2 Maccabees existed in the Jewish canon for 200 years, from the time that Jason wrote his work to the time 2 Macc was removed. According to some scholars, it was written around 50 AD, so that would mean it existed in the Jewish canon for a mere 50 years before they tossed it out, and it was not part of the Scriptures when Christ was on Earth.

(My calculations in #4 in my earlier comment was incorrect. I missed the BC.)

By the way, I'm focusing on the book of 2 Maccabees because I know that at some point in the future we'll be discussing the concept of Purgatory and that book in particular plays a large role in that Catholic doctrine. It we'll be difficult to discuss if we're not on the same page with regards to the source.

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

So the guys in Rome were sort of like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval? What an odd idea.

If you think that is strange, consider a man who thinks they are justified in removing books from the canon of Scripture, in the 1500's. Strange indeed...

Carlus Henry said...

Weston,

Sorry I didn't do very good job of launching us into the direction in order to include them into the discussion. When I sat down to write the starter blog entry, I didn't know what aspects of those people that you wanted to talk about. What did you want to talk about in regards to them?

I don't want to take away from this conversation. The canon of Scripture is very important to all Christians. At the same time, I am attempting to start this conversation at my blog....if you are interested.

Actually, we would; as TNF has pointed out, it would just be about different books. I don't think there has ever been a time where everyone has been in complete agreement about which books are inspired.

I am curious as to what you are basing this on. If you notice, triednotfried, did not include a particular time line. In other words, the books that were disputed were only disputed for a time....the question that we should ask is if and when did the disputes stop. Sure there are those who would question the canon of some books, but at the same time, I would submit that they would trust the official statement of the Church.

Allowing the widest time range, 2 Maccabees existed in the Jewish canon for 200 years,

I guess this would be important to us, if we were Jewish. However, we are not. We are Christian. As Christians, we should be interested in what is in the Christian canon, defined by the Holy Spirit which was given to the Christian people and the Church. As you said:

100 AD - The Jews had removed 2 Macc from their canon

This is after the death and resurrection of Christ. That means that the Christian Church had begun. That means that the Christian Church had their set canon. For Jews to remove the book from their canon is just fine for Jews, but not for Christians.

So, my position is not a stretch....2000 years is pretty accurate if we are talking about the Christian Canon.

D.L. said...

The books that were never considered inspired by God by Jews, nor by the Catholic Church until Trent? Some were considered useful for study, but not inspired by God? Those?

Regardless of which books you refer to, or what was removed from the canon that wasn't yet official canon, there is a difference between what men do/don't do and the sovereignty of God and His NEED for men for anything.

Anonymous said...

I've fallen way behind on this, I see! Oh boy... I'll be back at some point with my thoughts on your 4 men, Carlus. Might be a few days, I seems to have come down with the flu...

Anonymous said...

Kara: Praying for your speedy recovery... =)

This "Regardless of which books you refer to, or what was removed from the canon that wasn't yet official canon, there is a difference between what men do/don't do and the sovereignty of God and His NEED for men for anything." is an extremely good point.

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

there is a difference between what men do/don't do and the sovereignty of God and His NEED for men for anything.

I don't think that anyone is doubting God's soverignty. I believe that God CHOOSES to involve man in His plan of salvation. That just seems to be his modus operandi.

God didn't need Moses to stretch out his hand in order to split the Red Sea. God didn't need Joshua to march around Jerhico in order to blow the walls down. God didn't need Jonah in order to preach the good news to the Ninevites....He CHOSE to involve these men in that plan.

I don't think that anyone is pitting God's sovereignty over amd against man's involvement. If anything, God's sovereignty chooses to have man involved in the plan of salvation - and that is okay because God is sovereign.

God bless...

Weston said...

I guess this would be important to us, if we were Jewish. However, we are not. We are Christian. As Christians, we should be interested in what is in the Christian canon, defined by the Holy Spirit which was given to the Christian people and the Church.

This just blows my mind. In 2 Macc, we have a Jewish writer writing to the Jewish people about Jewish history while advocating Jewish religious practices. The Jewish religious authorities then proceed to reject the book, despite the fact that it includes strong support for one of their cherished celebrations (Hannukah), because it advocates a practice that has absolutely no support in the rest of the Jewish teachings or temple history. We're supposed to completely ignore all that because the Catholic church needs to keep the book around because it supports practices that lacks support in the rest of the Christian canon?

Either 2 Macc is inspired by God or it is not. If it is not inspired, then it doesn't belong in either canon, the Christian Bible or the Talmud. The Jews worship and communicate with the exact same God as we do. They were the ones whose judgment we Christians followed in forming pretty much the entirety of the Old Testament. Keep in mind that the people who assembled and kept the OT could not have been led by the Holy Spirit because He had not been sent yet. So as I stated before, we rely on a few tests to determine whether the OT author was speaking on God's behalf or his own. 2 Macc fails these tests. By the author's own admission (2 Mc 2:24-31, he has excluded a great number of details from the original work by Jason in order to "please those who wish to read".

After reading 2 Macc and researching it myself, I come to the conclusion that it was a mistake for the Christian church to include it in the first place, when the Council of Jamnia had rejected it, and that Martin Luther corrected that mistake when he relegated it to the Apocrypha. It's not inspired. If you believe otherwise, show some evidence that supports that belief.

Carlus Henry said...

Wes,

because it advocates a practice that has absolutely no support in the rest of the Jewish teachings or temple history.

What practice might that be? Praying for the Dead? Are you saying that Jews today do not pray for the departed?

If this is the case, then I would suggest you do more research to determine if Jews still to this day have prayers for the dead - which they do.

We're supposed to completely ignore all that because the Catholic church needs to keep the book around because it supports practices that lacks support in the rest of the Christian canon?

Ah, so once again we are back to circular reasoning. The same people who identified which books belong in the New Testament canon that you are using to support your case against 2 Macc., are the same folks who decided to include 2 Macc. in the first place. So once again, you either should accept all of the canon or none of it based off of the witness of the Early Church.

So as I stated before, we rely on a few tests to determine whether the OT author was speaking on God's behalf or his own.

This is the source of the problem. You think you can recreate the "measuring stick" in order to determine what belongs in the canon or not. Why do you think that you are capable of accomplishing such a task? Were you taught by the Apostles? Are you capable of discerning the Holy Spirit accurately?

Let's just suppose that you were capable. What would you do? You would probably get a whole bunch of folks together, fast and pray and make an authoritative decision on what the canon should be. Most likely you would call it a Council of Michigan and make formal decrees binding on the faithful....If this sounds familiar it is something that happened a long time ago, with folks that were many less degrees removed from Jesus and the Apostles. We can thank them for the New Testament as well as the Old.

After reading 2 Macc and researching it myself, I come to the conclusion that it was a mistake for the Christian church to include it in the first place,

Based off of what? Based off of comparing it to other writings identified by the Early Church? Then how do we know that the NT writings are correct? There is no basis of assurance that the canon we have is right. Why stop there. Maybe they got the whole thing wrong. Maybe Jesus was only a Man and not Divine. Or Maybe He was really Divine and not a Man. Don't point me to Scriptures that would say otherwise, because as you said, they were wrong with 2 Macc. so they could easily be wrong with the New Testament. See how dangerous this line of thinking is?

D.L. said...

The church fathers accepted the thirty-nine books of the Old Testament. The only exception was Augustine (A. D. 400) who included the books of the Apocrypha (those “extra” books that some Bibles include between the books of the Old and New Testaments). However, he did acknowledge that they were not fully authoritative. The books of the Apocrypha were not officially recognized as part of the canon until the Council of Trent (A.D. 1546).

The apocryphal books were even considered valuable for reading, just not inspired by God.

There are passages in the NT that are somewhat similar to passages in apocryphal books, but none that can be considered actual 'quotes' with any degree of intellectual honesty. Neither Jesus or the Apostles ever quoted apocryphal books, however they did quote from the Hebrew scriptures.

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

The church fathers accepted the thirty-nine books of the Old Testament. The only exception was Augustine (A. D. 400) who included the books of the Apocrypha (those “extra” books that some Bibles include between the books of the Old and New Testaments).

Where did you get this information from?

Cyprian of Carthage wrote:
"In Genesis [it says], ‘And God tested Abraham and said to him, "Take your only son whom you love, Isaac, and go to the high land and offer him there as a burnt offering . . ."’ [Gen. 22:1–2]. . . . Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon [it says], ‘Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality . . .’ [Wis. 3:4]. Of this same thing in the Maccabees [it says], ‘Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness’ [1 Macc. 2:52; see Jas. 2:21–23]" (Treatises 7:3:15 [A.D. 248]).


Council of Rome
"Now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book, Ecclesiastes, one book, [and] Canticle of Canticles [Song of Songs], one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books" (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).

If you want to read more, Polycarp, Ireneaus, Clement of Rome...:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp

Anonymous said...

Carlus, let me know when you want to jump in and start talking about the 4 men you wanted to discuss. I read up on Justin Martyr. Now, I'm thinking you have spent much time researching him and probably know a lot more than I do. His story is very similar to Paul's story. Why don't we talk about one man at a time, is that okay? Let's start with Justin, if that's okay with you.

Anonymous said...

From everything I have read the last couple of days, the Apocrypha existed before the NT times, yet even though Jesus quoted from twenty four OT books, and the NT quotes from thirty four books of the OT, there is never a singe quote from the Apocrypha. That can't be ignored. Also, I have yet to find any quote such as "it is written" or "thus says the Lord.... The books of 1st and 2nd Maccabees have some historical significance, but in comparing them to the Bible, I do not see how they are inspired. There are some contradictions that puzzle me, one being that in 1st and 2nd Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is seen to die three different deaths, in three different places. It is inconsistencies like these that make me scratch my head.

I see that some of the early church father quoted from these writings, but does their acceptance as inspired make them inspired? There were many false teachers and heretics in the Second Century and following. I think it is a huge sign to us that Jesus nor any of the Apostles quoted from or mentioned any of these books.

Weren't the Jews the ones who canonized the Books of the OT, yet they did not include them. I don't understand the whole praying to the dead thing, but it seems as tho prayers for the dead and salvation by works are major issues. I guess my problem with prayers for the dead is different in the fact that we do not know, we DO NOT KNOW, where people end up once they pass. We can not see the hearts of men. I know alot of people who do alot of great things throughout their lifetime yet have denied Christ the whole time and are now in hell. I can not pray to someone who may be in hell because someone else tells me they aren't. If they are truly in Heaven, they are not prayers to the dead, they are prayers to the living, and since I ask my brothers and sisters to pray for me here, why not? But, the fact that I do not know.... would keep me from such a thing.

Some of the stories I see in the Apocrypha are clearly fiction as well. What is up with Bel and the Dragon? It's nuts. The book of Wisdom 11:17 teaches that God made the universe out of pre-existing matter instead of "ex nihilo" as in Genesis 1:1-2, John 1:1-3, and Hebrews 11:3. Some other errors that I have found are historical. Tobit clams that he was alive when the assyrians conquered Israel in 722 BC, and also when Jeroboam revolted against Juday in 931 BC. Then records his complete lifespan to be 158 years. The two events were 859 years apart. There is another error as Judith states that Nebuchadnezzar reigned in Nineveh instead of Babylon....... I could go on and on... but I still believe there are sound reasons why the lord allowed these books to be removed from the inspired Word of God.

Carlus Henry said...

Kara,

Justin Martyr....excellent choice. That is my confirmation saint...translated to...my personal hero of the faith that I feel a very close connection with.

Where to begin? What do you know about the Apologies....1st and Second....

Also, I am more than willing to have the conversation here, but I did start it on my blog as well....either way...don't want to hijack the current conversation.

God bless...

Weston said...

What practice might that be?

Purgatory and indulgences.

Ah, so once again we are back to circular reasoning. The same people who identified which books belong in the New Testament canon that you are using to support your case against 2 Macc., are the same folks who decided to include 2 Macc. in the first place. So once again, you either should accept all of the canon or none of it based off of the witness of the Early Church.

This is not circular reasoning. 2 Macc is not a book written by a Christian author; it was included in the Septuagint. Since 2 Macc was originally written in Greek, it did not need to translated and therefore could be attached wholesale to the Septuagint. The early church accepted the Septuagint but did not compile it.

The New Testament is a whole different ballgame than the OT. Authenticity of a book in the NT is determined by it's proximity to Jesus and His teaching. 2 Macc has no connection to Jesus or his teachings, so I maintain that the Jewish religious authorities have jurisdiction.

This is the source of the problem. You think you can recreate the "measuring stick" in order to determine what belongs in the canon or not.

Yes. I personally need to have an understanding of why particular books are in the Canon. It is not acceptable for me to base my entire belief system on what a bunch of men decided a long time ago that has been transmitted via word of mouth over 2000 years. There is way, way too much possibility for error. To illustrate, I went to look up Clement of Rome on the Church Fathers resource that you linked on your blog, and of the 5 writings associated with Clement, I see [SPURIOUS] listed after all but 1. This means that 80% of the stuff attributed to him is likely junk. This also means that during one point or another during history, the church accepted these forgeries as truth. That doesn't inspire much confidence.

Why do you think that you are capable of accomplishing such a task?

The early church was made up of ordinary people, just like me, guided by the Holy Spirit, just like me. If I can uncover their reasons, I can apply the criteria just like they did.

Were you taught by the Apostles?

No. Yet, in a way, yes. The New Testament contains a good share of the teachings of the Apostles. I learn from that.

Are you capable of discerning the Holy Spirit accurately?

Maybe, maybe not. How can you possibly know? If I were to declare that the Holy Spirit definitively revealed to me that a particular book is or is not inspired, how would you counter that?

If this sounds familiar it is something that happened a long time ago, with folks that were many less degrees removed from Jesus and the Apostles. We can thank them for the New Testament as well as the Old.

I don't believe that this is something that should only ever happen once. The process should happen over and over, with each generation affirming the findings of the previous. If the books of the Bible are inspired by God, we have nothing to fear; each generation will simply reaffirm the books that are there and learn the reasons why they believe. And, if new factual information comes to light, it could potentially weed out false teaching.

There is no basis of assurance that the canon we have is right.

Yes, there is. As I said, for the New Testament, we judge authenticity of a New Testament book by its close proximity to Jesus and His teachings. This must be the case. Otherwise, why wouldn't we include inspired writings that continued to flow from God up until this very day? By using this as a standard, we can have a very clear and objective foundation to understand where truth comes from.

Please note that in this test of authenticity, I said nothing about the opinions of the early church. The books stand or fall on their own merit and the available facts, not on the opinion of a group of men.

D.L. said...

Wes,

You bring up some good points. That certain practices seem to need apocryphal writings for their legitimacy is huge.

D.L. said...

This is an interesting site, with arguements concernng the apocrypha from both sides, with corresponding rebuttals:

http://www.biblequery.org/Bible/BibleCanon/WhatAboutTheApocrypha.htm

Anonymous said...

Carlus, oh yes... you said before that you would be starting this conversation on your blog. I will head over there.

Carlus Henry said...

Wes,

Purgatory and indulgences.

Purgatory and indulgences are something that most Non-Catholics, and even most Catholics don't fully understand. However, with an earlier conversation that we had, I feel it is important to bring to light that you admitted that 2 Macc does support praying for the dead, which is a custom that the Jews still hold on to this day. Prayer for the dead is also a practice of the Early Church, and the Orthodox and Catholics of today. The belief that prayers for the dead is completely orthodox and has been with the Jews and Christian culture since the beginning.

it did not need to translated and therefore could be attached wholesale to the Septuagint. The early church accepted the Septuagint but did not compile it.

Exactly. They did not compile it, yet they accepted it. There was not a provision from the Apostles, on which books should be read and which ones shouldn't be. There was not something stated that indicated that we should avoid these readings but pay close attention to the other ones. As a matter of fact, the canon of the OT was not closed. It was open. The Saduccess accepted one set of books while the Pharisees accepted another. The Early Church were converted Jews, prior to the Gentiles. The God of the OT and the Scripture writings of the OT did not become null and void at that point. We inherited those scriptures from the people that taught us about Christ.

Authenticity of a book in the NT is determined by it's proximity to Jesus and His teaching.

Based off of what? Where did you get this information from? Were you there during the Council meetings that decided on the canon? Did you read the writings about how the process took place? Have you read any of the official documentation that came out of the Council that would support this position? Also, is this the only criteria?

Regarding you creating your own measuring stick...

Yes. I personally need to have an understanding of why particular books are in the Canon. It is not acceptable for me to base my entire belief system on what a bunch of men decided a long time ago that has been transmitted via word of mouth over 2000 years.

I am sorry, but our whole faith is based on what a bunch of people taught over 2000 years ago. Jesus Christ put the Apostles in charge. He told them things like, "If they accept you, then they accept Me and the One who sent me. If they reject you then they reject Me and the One who sent Me". He told them things like, "As the Father has sent Me, so I now send you". They held their first Council meeting in Jerusalem Acts 12, and it was binding on every living Christian.

This is the Church. The Church is a bunch of people who lived 2000 years ago and taught the Gospel as they recieved it from Christ. Those men taught others, and down the line we go. When they were selecting which books were part of the Canon and which were not, what do you think that they used as the measuring stick in order to determine if something was canonical? They used the "teachings" that they had already received from the Apostles. When there were heresies propping up all over the place - and it did occur pretty soon after Jesus left, let alone while the disciples were still alive, how did they battle them? According to the "traditions" that they were taught. When people were twisting the Scriptures and Marcion wanted to throw out some of the writings of the Gospels....who had the authority to stand up against them and say what was right and what was wrong??? a bunch of men decided a long time ago that has been transmitted via word of mouth over 2000 years.

Put simply, you owe your faith to someone that taught it to you. That person that taught it to them owes it to them, and back down the chain we go....back to those bunch of men who lived 2000 years ago, who first taught the faith through word of mouth.

Carlus Henry said...

Wes,

(continued)

There is way, way too much possibility for error. To illustrate, I went to look up Clement of Rome on the Church Fathers resource that you linked on your blog, and of the 5 writings associated with Clement, I see [SPURIOUS] listed after all but 1. This means that 80% of the stuff attributed to him is likely junk.

Junk? Why junk? Because it cannot be said beyond the shadow of a doubt that Clement wrote those letters? Therefore the information inside of them cannot be trusted? In that case, you might as well throw out Hebrews. People think that Paul wrote it, but it cannot be proved beyond the shadow of a doubt....therefore it is junk...at least according to this logic.

It is only junk if it contradicts the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Of course, if it doesn't contradict it, that doesn't mean that it not inspired. It just means that it passes the easiest litmus test for determining scripture.

The early church was made up of ordinary people, just like me, guided by the Holy Spirit, just like me. If I can uncover their reasons, I can apply the criteria just like they did.

No. They were not just like you. They carried with them a special blessing from Christ. Sure, you and I are endowed with the Holy Spirit, but we were never told that we have the Keys to the Kingdom. We were never told that whatever we loose on Earth will be loose in Heaven and whatever we bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven. That was a blessing from Christ to the Apostles and the disciples that followed them. Not you.

Now, were they perfect? No. But when they come together, just like they did in Acts 12, what they declare is authoritative.

Maybe, maybe not. How can you possibly know? If I were to declare that the Holy Spirit definitively revealed to me that a particular book is or is not inspired, how would you counter that?

Just like I mentioned before. Jesus instituted a Church. That Church has the power to loose and bind. If someone says that they believe that the Book of Mormon is inspired by God, how would you counter it? Unless God put an authoritative body in charge, you can't. It is pretty much one person's word against another. Matt 18 says (paraphrasing)....take it to the Church. If the person doesn't believe the Church, then treat them as an outcast.

I don't believe that this is something that should only ever happen once. The process should happen over and over, with each generation affirming the findings of the previous.

Exactly. There has been 21 Councils over history. They each affirm what the other has done. If you want to go through the excercise and affirm that they were right in each council...go for it. If you find out that you disagree with one or more of the councils...then we have problems, and you may as well start the Church of Weston. Take a little bit of Luther here, a little bit of Calvin there, a little bit of Wesley, a little bit of John Knox there....and on and on and on.

Yes, there is. As I said, for the New Testament, we judge authenticity of a New Testament book by its close proximity to Jesus and His teachings.

This brings up an interesting question. How do you know the proximity of when Acts was written? Or Mark, or Revelation....you must trust someone who said this. Who? Do you have any names? Why trust them? They could have made the whole thing up. It could all be counterfeit. It is just a bunch of men who lived 2000 years ago as you said before....

I trust, because I trust the Church. I trust the Church because I trust the Jesus Christ who instituted the Church and lead it with the Holy Spirit into all areas of truth.

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.

That certain practices seem to need apocryphal writings for their legitimacy is huge.

This is a Sola Scriptura mindset. Legitimacy is not solely based on Scripture. You can ask a Jew if they still pray for the dead. If we could go back in time, we could ask the teachers of the Gospel if they prayed for the dead. You could also open up Scripture and look at Onesiphurus and see that Paul prays for him...and most likely, he is dead at this point....

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

This is an interesting site, with arguements concernng the apocrypha from both sides, with corresponding rebuttals:

I have one to match:

Did the Catholic Church Add to the Old Testament

Weston said...

Carlus, this illustrates a fundamental difference between you and me. I've been in too many churches over the course of my life to implicitly trust "the church" or anything that is taught to me. If I can't understand it and it doesn't make sense, I'm simply not going to believe it. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but only when the hard-to-understand idea is explicitly laid out in the Bible. I'm not going to believe something simply because "the Church" tells me it is true. This is why I'll never be a Catholic; I thoroughly reject any organization that tells me that I should believe everything they say and that they cannot make any mistakes; this is setting myself up to get lied to. This blind faith is what Mormons and Scientologists do; they believe whatever the authority structure tells them they should, even if it makes no sense whatsoever. This is what Catholics of the past did; they went and killed themselves on crusades in the Holy Land because someone told them they should.

No. They were not just like you. They carried with them a special blessing from Christ.

I don't believe in this idea. Can you support this with Scripture?

That was a blessing from Christ to the Apostles and the disciples that followed them. Not you.

In what way am I not a disciple that follows Christ?

Carlus Henry said...

Wes,

I've been in too many churches over the course of my life to implicitly trust "the church" or anything that is taught to me. If I can't understand it and it doesn't make sense, I'm simply not going to believe it.

I feel for you...seriously I do. There are so many churches out there that are very tantalizing and entertaining, but have the message completely wrong and sometimes even heretical. I am sorry that you have been burned by them....

This blind faith is what Mormons and Scientologists do; they believe whatever the authority structure tells them they should, even if it makes no sense whatsoever.

So, the alternative is that every person with a Bible is able to discern the Holy Spirit for themselves and be led into all areas of truth. Evidence has clearly illustrated since the Protestant Reformation that this is not the case. There are how many different thousands of denominations out there who are being led by the Holy Spirit into often contradictary beliefs?

This is what Catholics of the past did; they went and killed themselves on crusades in the Holy Land because someone told them they should.

What a completely unfounded criticism that you can make centuries after the fact. Do you know what was going on with the state of the time during the Crusdades? Do you know about how the Muslims were marching up and down the Holy Lands enslaving and forcing people to convert to Islam..and how long this was going on before the Crusade to take back Jerusalem even began? Did you know that it was not only the Church but the emperors and kings of the time that was behind the effort....I am sure that is not your point, but since you threw that statement out there like it was a bunch of brainless idiots following the Church, I feel like I have to defend their honor and sacrifice.

I don't believe in this idea. Can you support this with Scripture?

Christ blessed the 11 Apostles after He rose from the dead, right? Breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit....then you see that they needed to replace Judas Iscariot, and they prayed and decided that his bishoprick would be handed over to Matthias....bishoprick...authority / jurisdiction....you see the Apostles and elders coming together at the Council of Jerusalem....you see the 7 being put in charge by Peter in Acts....you see Timothy receiving a blessing from the elders in order to teach.....historically, you see Polycarp being made a bishoip by St. John....(you should watch the video about Polycarp)...you see Ignatius being a Bishop of the Early Church...on and on and on.....

In what way am I not a disciple that follows Christ?

The point that I evidently failed to make was that you were not there with the body of the believers who was told that whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven. The authority was not given to every single believer. It was given to the believers that was present there. Since neither you or I was present there....we cannot even begin to claim that kind of authority....of course this has not prevented some folks from thinking that they can.....

Of course you are a follower of Christ, and a good one at that...questions cause people to seek and of course "seek and you shall find".

God bless...

Anonymous said...

"The point that I evidently failed to make was that you were not there with the body of the believers who was told that whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven. The authority was not given to every single believer. It was given to the believers that was present there. Since neither you or I was present there....we cannot even begin to claim that kind of authority....of course this has not prevented some folks from thinking that they can....."

OOPIE! Ummmm I'll just ask how you have decided what was meant for then and what is meant for now? Do I need to show some "this is our authority in Christ" scripture? He still moves in and among His people, and uses MANY in powerful ways...

Carlus Henry said...

triednotfried,

OOPIE! Ummmm I'll just ask how you have decided what was meant for then and what is meant for now?

If "What you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and what you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven", applied to everyone, then why do we have so much contradiction. Two people with completely contradicting teachings of Christ cannot exist if this was intended for all believers.

Do I need to show some "this is our authority in Christ" scripture? He still moves in and among His people, and uses MANY in powerful ways...

Of course He is. He is active and alive in all of the lives of the believers. He reveals things to us all of the time, if we but listen. To some people He is revealing Himself physically through visions. Now, I am not the one to say that the visions are not true, at the same time, I don't have to believe it. It is not binding on my conscience to believe that private revelation.

However, what is binding is the public revelation. This would include the Humanity and Divinity of Christ, Trinity, e.t.c...

This is the type of authority that I am referring to. Who today, has the authority, to recognize the will of God for the faithful as a whole, and not on the individual level. Those people that was there with Christ, namely the Apostles who were left in charge, by Christ, can claim that authority...not you and I.

Willison said...

If I can't understand it and it doesn't make sense, I'm simply not going to believe it.

Careful, that sounds a lot like Grandma Eve in the Garden.

While I appreciate all the intellectual debate over the process, I think you are all missing the central point.
As Wes pointed out, God did not carve the Bible into stone with his finger and the Bible itself doesn't list what books should be in. So that means, if you believe God wanted to have a Bible, then God intended that some human being would have to make a decision, or at least pronounce the decision.
So the question is not HOW, the question is WHO.
Once you decide who it was God intended to make the pronouncement (the successor of Peter confirmed by a council of the Church over 1000 years later, or a disgruntled priest who couldn't keep his vows)then you should just accept whatever that person said. (That is, unless you want to argue either that any of you are the person God intended to decide, or you believe we can all define the Bible for ourself.)
It is worth noting that even after all this debate, there are only two choices. There is no third option in all of Christian history.

Anonymous said...

" then why do we have so much contradiction."

Because some people choose to believe it and some don't. Some feel it was only for back then, some feel God's Word is for the here and now.

"Two people with completely contradicting teachings of Christ cannot exist if this was intended for all believers."

Of course they can. I know that the separation for you guys is Catholic vs. Protestant... but bring up a topic within your church, ask everyone to write on it, and see how many truly agree or even understand the same things....

The authority you were speaking of was about whether or not we have the authority and power through Jesus Christ to bind and loose in Heaven and Earth. I say we do.

Anonymous said...

"God did not carve the Bible into stone with his finger"

Ummm what about the 10 commandments? Just sayin'....

Carlus Henry said...

triednotfried,

Because some people choose to believe it and some don't. Some feel it was only for back then, some feel God's Word is for the here and now.

Are you saying that those who believe that God's Word is for the here and now, don't disagree? If they do disagree...then how do you distinguish which actually speaks for God and which doesn't? My Bible tells me to take it to the Church....Matt 18...but then that leads to another question:

I know that the separation for you guys is Catholic vs. Protestant...

No....There are plenty of Catholics that have embarrassed the Church. The separation for me is between true teachings of Christ and people who have either knowingly or unknowingly perverted the Gospel.

but bring up a topic within your church, ask everyone to write on it, and see how many truly agree or even understand the same things....

Which means that when you disagree, you take it to the Church, or you take it to some form of authority. If that authority is Scripture only, then many things can be read into Scripture that just aren't there. Two people with contradicting thoughts about God can search the scriptures and each come to the conclusion that their position is correct. This is a problem, especially if the matter is over something that has already been divinely revealed.

Anonymous said...

"Are you saying that those who believe that God's Word is for the here and now, don't disagree?"

Not at all, I was simply giving an example of two groups of two true believers, yet that have different positions within God's Word. I don't think you answered how you know which parts of the Word you are suppose to apply to today, and how you distinguish what was just for people back then...

"There are plenty of Catholics that have embarrassed the Church. The separation for me is between true teachings of Christ and people who have either knowingly or unknowingly perverted the Gospel."

Oh my, now I digress again (shhhhhh don't tell Willison) this is going way back to one of my original questions for you....IF this is true... then what is the point of joining the Catholic faith. If "coming into complete truth" does not cause anything different in ones walk... what's the point? I'm saved... that's all that matters.

"Which means that when you disagree, you take it to the Church, or you take it to some form of authority. "

Which is my point. IF as you say, you are the one true church, and this is still running rampant even tho you have this authority.... what's the point? I can go to my Pastor and settle a dispute too.

Willison said...

"Willison" always hears his name. :-)

The truth always makes a difference. Coming into the complete truth always changes one's walk. You're right that it wouldn't matter if being saved was like a one way door you pass through never to leave. But it's not that way. (And that is way off topic.)

Weston said...

Christ blessed the 11 Apostles after He rose from the dead, right? Breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit....then you see that they needed to replace Judas Iscariot, and they prayed and decided that his bishoprick would be handed over to Matthias....bishoprick...authority / jurisdiction....you see the Apostles and elders coming together at the Council of Jerusalem....you see the 7 being put in charge by Peter in Acts....you see Timothy receiving a blessing from the elders in order to teach.....historically, you see Polycarp being made a bishoip by St. John....(you should watch the video about Polycarp)...you see Ignatius being a Bishop of the Early Church...on and on and on.....

This is such an excellent example of what bothers me so much about Catholic theology, that I can't help but take a detour into it temporarily. (Please bear with me, I haven't enjoyed researching and studying the Bible this much, in many years!) There is truth in everything you said, however there are a series of small inferences and assumptions made that all add up to something that I'm not certain is actually present in the text. Or, in other words, it feels like you are reading into the text things that aren't there.

Source 1: (NIV) John 20:21-23
Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." [22] And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. [23] If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Catholic Inference 1: Jesus imparted a special "blessing" to the Disciples by this act.

1. Jesus breathed on the Disciples. The text does not indicate why he did this, or what affect this had on them, other than he asked them to receive the Holy Spirit.

2. Physical breath must not be the only method by which the Holy Spirit is transmitted, because there is evidence of believers in the Bible who appear to have the Holy Spirit but were not breathed on by Jesus.

3. Jesus gives the Apostles special authority to forgive sins.

4. It is not clear whether this authority is granted based on a) Jesus' breath b) the Holy Spirit, or c) simply Jesus' statement.

5. It is not clear if the sins that can be forgiven are a) sins against the Apostles, or b) any offense against God.

Source 2: (NIV) Acts 1:21-26
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, [22] beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." [23] So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. [24] Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen [25] to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." [26] Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Catholic Inference 2: The "special authority" that was originally given to the 11 Apostles was granted to Matthias.

6. Matthias was chosen to take over the ministry spot in the 12 Apostles previously held by Judas.

7. Jesus specifically gave the authority to forgive sins to 11 men. It is unclear whether this authority could then be transferred to others.

8. For sake of discussion, I will assume that Matthias has the Holy Spirit within him. I recognize that this is an assumption, but can be supported with other verses.

9. If the Holy Spirit was the avenue by which this authority was granted, then Matthias already had this authority by virtue of the Holy Spirit.

10. While this decision, made by casting lots, gives Matthias a position of leadership in the church, it is unclear what special abilities or privileges this granted him.

(continued...)

Weston said...

Source 3: Seven men were chosen for service in Acts 6:1-7

Catholic Inference 3: The authority given to the Apostles was transferred to these seven.

11. The verses specifically state that these men were chosen to distribute food to widows so that the Apostles wouldn't have to "neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables."

12. The verses do not state that any other privileges, authority, or abilities were granted to the seven.

Source 4: Around the second century AD, Irenaeus writes "Against Heresies, where he lists off a succession of bishops.

Catholic Inference 4: In order to become a bishop, you must be ordained by someone in the lineage of the "special blessing" of the Apostles.

12. In Irenaeus' area there were Gnostics who were claiming that they had a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself. (Why does this "secret oral tradition" sound so much like the Catholic church's "Sacred Tradition"...) In order to prove these people wrong, Irenaeus provides a succession of men leading back to Jesus in order to prove that they are the ones that have the correct teachings, not the Gnostics.

13. I don't see evidence that this succession is required to establish a church, just that it differentiates the true disciples of Jesus from the impostors when there is confusion.

14. I was unable to find Irenaeus' credentials. i.e. by what authority does he write? Why should we listen to him?

15. I was uncertain of the meaning of the word "bishop", so I looked it up. "Bishop" means "overseer". There is a description of such an overseer in 1 Tim:

Source 5: (NIV) 1 Timothy 3:1-7
Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being [a bishop], he desires a noble task. [2] Now the [bishop] must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. [5] (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. [7] He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

16. Do these qualifications match the current understanding of Catholic bishops?

Carlus Henry said...

Wes,

It may take a bit...but I will get back to this...

Carlus Henry said...

Wes,

Okay...I couldn't resist....Here we go:

There is so much that you stated in the last couple of posts. I am not even sure how to respond. Have you ever heard of the doctrinal dance? You comment is begging a response to touch 4 different points of Catholic Theology. Instead of dancing around all of these different challenges, I will only focus on the first one.

Catholic Inference 1: Jesus imparted a special "blessing" to the Disciples by this act.

1. Jesus breathed on the Disciples. The text does not indicate why he did this, or what affect this had on them, other than he asked them to receive the Holy Spirit.

True.

2. Physical breath must not be the only method by which the Holy Spirit is transmitted, because there is evidence of believers in the Bible who appear to have the Holy Spirit but were not breathed on by Jesus.

Very True. Yet these are the the ones that are mentioned in Scripture that He breathed on after the resurrection. He gave them a special blessing...if you will.

3. Jesus gives the Apostles special authority to forgive sins.

True.

4. It is not clear whether this authority is granted based on a) Jesus' breath b) the Holy Spirit, or c) simply Jesus' statement.

True. I would like to think that it was based on 'c'. Isn't that enough of a reason?

5. It is not clear if the sins that can be forgiven are a) sins against the Apostles, or b) any offense against God.

True. So how do we find out in what capacity the Apostles were given the ability to forgive sins. We can look further in Scripture, and see things like this:

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake,2 Cor 2:5-10

Let's try to do this quickly...

Sin is never personal, it is always communal
Your sin affects me, even if it is not against me. That is why Paul says that if anyone has caused grief, he has grieved you all. Even the little 3 year old child that was at Mass during the initial reading of this letter to his Corinthian church, has been grieved. Sin affects the whole body of the church.

Paul forgives in "persona Christi"
Paul forgives sins, not only the ones that are comitted against him (that is just logical), but also the sins that have been committed against the Church, or the Body of Christ. That is what he means when He says "What I have forgiven-if there was anything to forigve-I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake". "Sight of Christ", "presence of Christ", "perona Christi" - translations sometimes does matter (last one being KJV). Paul is exercising the authority that he defines in 2 Cor 5:18 - which is the ministry of reconciliation.

Please feel free to ponder on those things (this was really an aside of the conversation anyways), however, just to help bring the topic back to focus....Was Paul with the 11 when Christ breathed on them? No. Then how did He receive this "special" blessing? What right does he have to make these claims, "person of Christ", Ambassador of Christ....hmmmmm?

Carlus Henry said...

Everyone,

Sorry...I should have cited one of my sources:

Confession: Is it Biblical

D.L. said...

WOW...that source about confession takes a whole lot out of context and seems to ignore that the Bible says that Christ in the only mediator between God and Man and that only God can forgive sins, also in the Bible. In fact I here that one of the reasons the Jews were so cramped up about Jesus is that he did forgive sins.

And if you read about Paul in the Bible - not THAT book again, you find out that he had a rather personal experience with revelation.

Carlus, all you have to do is read the Book. . .

Carlus Henry said...

D.L.,

Hey....thanks for the encouragement to reading Scripture. I don't think that I can get enough of that good book.

:)

D.L. said...

Weston's source 1:

Jhn20:21-23. Jesus then recommissioned the disciples as His apostles: He was sending them as His representatives, as the Father had sent Him (cf. 17:18). They were sent with His authority to preach, teach, and do miraculous signs (Matt. 28:16-20; Luke 24:47-49). For their new commission they needed spiritual power. So He breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. The image and wording of breathing on them recalls God’s creative work in making Adam (Gen. 2:7). Now this post-Resurrection “breathing” was a new kind of creative work for they would soon become new creations (Eph. 2:8-10). This reception of the Spirit was in anticipation of the day of Pentecost and should be understood as a partial limited gift of knowledge, under standing, and empowerment until Pentecost, 50 days later.
Forgiveness of sins is one of the major benefits of the death of Jesus. It is the essence of the New Covenant (cf. Matt. 26:28; Jer. 31:31-34). Proclaiming the forgiveness of sins was the prominent feature of the apostolic preaching in the Book of Acts. Jesus was giving the apostles (and by extension, the church) the privilege of announcing heaven’s terms on how a person can receive forgiveness. If one believes in Jesus, then a Christian has the right to announce his forgiveness. If a person rejects Jesus’ sacrifice, then a Christian can announce that that person is not forgiven."

Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:343