In my last blog post, Kara pointed out that I left out one of the greatest sources of truth, and that is what is commonly known as "the Leading of the Holy Spirit". She was absolutely correct; I left it out on purpose. I left it out for two reasons. The first reason is that I wanted the demonstrate that the process that Christians go through, in order to discover truth, is almost identical to the search for truth in other disciplines, whether it is science, or mathematics, or history.
The second reason I gave was that I personally don't understand it. It's actually a little more than that; I don't trust it. Don't get me wrong; it's not that the Holy Spirit is not trustworthy, it's that I do not trust my ability to recognize it. More on that in a moment. Let me first say, this is me being transparent, honest, and vulnerable, so, please... go easy.
It's amazing to me that despite this (the leading of the Holy Spirit) being a thing that is talked about on a relatively frequent basis in the Christian community, how little we actually understand it. It's one of those things that people say and assume that people know what they mean and yet people really don't understand. It's like the story of the Emperor's New Clothes; everyone is thinking it, but no one has the guts to say anything.
So let's talk about it. Think about this: when was the last time you heard someone say "God led me to ...." or "I felt the Holy Spirit's leading in this matter..." Did you understand what they meant? Did you question their guidance? Did you ask them, "What did God say, exactly?" If not, why not?
Before we dive into those questions, let me lay out the foundation. Jesus himself described a "Counselor", which we understand to be a reference to the Holy Spirit.
John 16:5-15
5Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
So we know from these verses that one of the tasks of the Holy Spirit is to "guide us into all truth." But how exactly does this happen? In what ways does He guide us? I'm going to lay out three potential ways that the Holy Spirit uses to communicate with us and, along the way, point out just how little we know about each. If there are other ways than these three, I'm not aware of them.
Audible
In most cases in the Bible, audible speech was the primary way that God communicated to His prophets and people. However, if you were to poll Christians, I think you would find that most of them do not believe that God communicates in this way anymore, or if they do believe he still audibly speaks to people, they feel that it is only on very, very rare occasions. Many people would even consider you a lunatic if you claimed that you audibly heard the voice of God. Why is this? Why did God stop speaking to people directly? This method of communication is the most clear and unmistakeable. If you hear the voice of God such that you are able to repeat the words that He said, then there should be absolutely no confusion as to what He said. Unfortunately, like most people, I have no personal experience in this area, so I have only questions and very little answers.
Circumstantial
An interesting feature of the human mind is that it instinctively understands probability. You may never have been exposed to probability through academic study, yet if I tell you that I flipped a coin 100 times and it came up heads every time, you simply won't believe me. Many Christians believe that the Holy Spirit sometimes guides us through life by using our circumstances. They get to a point in their life where they need to make a choice and they begin looking for the "doors" that are open or closed to them, attributing this to the Holy Spirit. While I believe that God can and does manipulate our circumstances to guide us in a particular direction, the real challenge is to distinguish real guidance from simple coincidence. Too many times have I seen Christians assume that, because a particular opportunity is open to them, it is God's will and plunge headlong into something that turns out to be a very bad decision. So how do we know if God is trying to guide us through circumstances or not? I don't have any real solid answers here. The only thing I'm able to lean on to help distiguish is my sense of probability; the more unlikely a set of events is, the more likely it is that an outside influence, such as the Holy Spirit has a hand in it. So for example, if I'm on my way to the airport and I encounter a red light, I'll think nothing of it. However, if I hit all the lights red, my car has a flat tire, the road I was planning on taking to the airport is closed for construction, and then later I hear that the plane I was supposed to be on had engine trouble, then I might think that God had really not intended for me to be on that plane that day.
Mental
Ok, so this is the one I most want to talk about, because it is the most common, yet we understand so little. We hear this all the time. People say that God "led" them to do this or that. Even George W. Bush has said that God told him to "go and end the tyranny in Iraq." I can accept that God speaks to people, but I'm not sure how to be certain that it is true or not.
To define this method of communication, I would say the common view is that the Holy Spirit inserts thoughts into your stream of consciousness. You can't hear it with your ears, the thoughts just appear. This is similar to the concept of "telepathy", except that word doesn't fit; the prefix "tele" implies "transmission over a distance" but since the Holy Spirit is living inside Christians, there is no distance. For sake of discussion, let's give these thoughts a name; let's call this a "God-thought". All the rest are typically "Me-thoughts". It might be possible that all of your thoughts don't fall into those two buckets, but we'll touch on that later.
Here's an analogy that I've shared with a few people. Remember the classic episode of I Love Lucy where Ethel and Lucy are trying to wrap candies coming off a conveyor belt? Imagine your mind is like that conveyor belt and on it are your thoughts as they go streaming by. Instead of wrapping candies, your job is to sort those thoughts. You have two big boxes to throw the thoughts into, one labeled "God", and the other labeled "Me". The "God-thoughts" go in the "God" box, and the "Me-thoughts" go in the "Me" box. When making your decisions, you will rely heavily on whatever is in the "God" box and take everything in the "Me" box with a grain of salt.
The problem is that the two types of thoughts appear very similar and I don't feel that we as Christians have ever been taught how to properly differentiate between one type or the other. Some people have a loose "filter"; there's a lot of "Me-thoughts" that end up in the "God" box. i.e. there's a lot of times when people come up with ideas on their own and and then attribute them to God. The good news is that there's a little bit of help in this area; the Bible should be an initial "filter" before your own. If a thought crosses into your mind that conflicts with what the Bible says, it should immediately get tossed into the "Me" box. Following this principle should solve cases that blatantly contradict the Bible, so for example, if someone says "God told me I should leave my wife", you can confidently say, "Uh, no, sorry, He most definitely did not." But that leaves a whole group of ideas that are not directly contradictory to the Bible. How do we respond to someone who says "I think God is leading us to move to another state." How can we be sure? It sure looked like a God-thought when I tossed it into the box, but how can I be sure I'm not tossing my own thoughts in there?
Then there's the other side of things; people, like me, with the "strict" filter. To be safe, I, by nature, toss everything in the "Me" box. It has the advantage of never doing the wrong thing because you mistakenly thought God said it. But I can say from experience, it leaves you wondering why God never says anything to you. You feel like you're on your own. It's for this very reason that I left the Holy Spirit out of the process for determining truth; I can't be certain of the source. I think that there must be times where I may ignore the leading of the Holy Spirit because I'm chucking everything that "still small voice" says into the "Me" box.
There's also a more sinister notion here. If Satan is the "Deceiver", how does he go about deceiving? I'm pretty sure he doesn't audibly talk to us, so then does that mean he is also able to insert thoughts into our stream of consciousness? If this is so, having a "loose" filter is even more dangerous, because not only is there the chance that you might attribute your own thoughts to God, you might even toss a "Satan-thought" in there too!
So, with this analogy in mind, how can you tell the difference? Do you just guess? Jesus says in John 10:27, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." Can anyone please tell me what His voice sounds like?
56 comments:
How does the Holy Spirit "guide us into truth?" I think you nailed it with your statement in the first paragraph - “the process that Christians go through, in order to discover truth, is almost identical to the search for truth in other disciplines, whether it is science, or mathematics, or history.”
They read the book? And we have the greatest book of all, written by an infallible author, so 'readable' even us regular folks can read it and understand the most important stuff.
Sorry, but I had a pretty hard time slogging through a lot of that long post, though.
BTW, I deleted the first comment I sent for grammatical reasons.
It looks like the definition of the "leading of the Spirit" you refer to is some inner subjective experiential thing. I don't think your not understanding it is a bad thing at all. I don't see much in the Bible about sitting around and waiting around for some inner warm fuzzy thing, but I see a lot about reading and studying the word. How many times do we read "It is written?"
I can't think of a single time that I ever had a 'leading' that was somehow not connected to the written word. The leading of the Spirit is God reminding us of what He has revealed already in His written word.
Jesus told the disciples a lot they didn't understand at first, that became clear later, some walking with them along a road between the resurrection and His ascension.
Now we have the inspired, written word. Sometimes what we read is so clear to us that it juimps off the page. the Holy Spirit is at work teaching us. Other times it is not as clear at first, but when we study a bit we find that other clearer scripture 'interprets' the unclear for us. Scripture interprets itself. The Holy Spirit is at work.
Other times we receive a strong impulse to do or say something that might be our flesh acting up, or it might be one of those 'leadings'. How do we know what it is? The more of the written word we have stored up in our hearts, the easier it is to figure that out, to discern who/what is doing the leading.
God can speak to us audibly, but I think there are a whole lot of folks who misuse the "God SPOKE to me thing." He speaks to us from out of our circumstances. Circumstances might mean that God in blessing us, or he might be disciplining or chastening us. Circumstances are 'character builders.
I like your tossing it all in the "me" box idea. You are getting at being able to recognize "who is speaking to me". The more of the written word we have stored up in human 'silos' the easier it is to figure that out. Sometimes we need to get the book and do some studying. Either way, the "light bulb" blinks on and we "get it".
Once again, the Holy Spirit has worked through the written word to lead/guide us.
What does the "voice" sound like? Whatever you "hear" when you read the written word and the Holy Spirit imprints its truth on your heart.
The couple of times I heard a nearly 'audible voice' what I "heard" was rooted in the written word.
When I we are in the middle of a "circumstance", the written word can help me understand what is going on IN the circumstance.
When we mentally take in the written word and learn it, The Holy Spirit works in us to follow the right path/do the right thing (Phil 2:13 [I think]).
So Wes, you now know that I finally read through your post a few times and think I digested what you were trying to say/ask. I was paying attention and I can see you are doing some 'wrestling' with an important question and that is a good thing!
You mentioned three ways God speaks to us - audible, circumstances, and mental. All three are rooted in the inspired written word, whch you didn't include specifically, but I like to think was passively in the background.
I knew this was coming! Give me a few days Wes, and I will be back on. I have a lot of "opinions", but I know that doesn't hold much weight unless I have scripture to back it up.
See you all in a few days... no fighting, okay??
D.L., let me attempt to summarize what you said, so that I can be sure that I have it correct. You are saying that the Holy Spirit only gives guidance, or teaching, that clarifies the passages in the Bible that you must already be reading. Or in other words, the Holy Spirit can only help you understand the words that are already there, it does not give you new ones.
I'm not certain whether I agree with you or not. This idea is both confirmed and contradicted by the words of Jesus. On the one hand, Jesus said "He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears..." This seems to agree with the idea that the Holy Spirit can only "enhance" what has already been said by the words in the Bible. However, Jesus goes on to say, "... and he will tell you what is yet to come." This verse is somewhat cryptic; I'm not sure whether it's talking about events that are still to come, as in telling the future, or if it means new teachings that are yet to come. Either way, when Jesus said it, He obviously meant that the "Counselor" would be telling you things that were not written down yet. Perhaps this could mean the books that were added to the Bible after He left the earth?
The idea that the Holy Spirit only teaches existing Scripture is not the way that the vast majority of Christians view it. I'm not saying that you're wrong; just that it conflicts with the prevailing attitudes. Let me explain that more:
If this is true, and the Holy Spirit can only communicate what is written in the Bible, then it would be useless to pray to God and ask him for guidance in any matter other than moral issues. So, for example, you can't ask Him whether you should marry someone, what profession to pick, or where you should live, etc, because none of this can be found in the Bible. I don't want to get sidetracked into politics, but I'm going to use George W. Bush as an example because it is a very public scenario. Based on your statements, President Bush was mistaken when he said God told him to "go and end the tyranny in Iraq." I say this because there is no verse in the Bible that says "And thou, being the leader of a great nation, shall go and smite the descendants of the Babylonians to the third and fourth generation." If there is no verse, then there is no way for the Holy Spirit to clarify it.
And yet, in all the churches I've attended, Christians are encouraged to bring everything to God in prayer. Why would we do that if we shouldn't expect a response? If we are to expect a response, what exactly should we look for?
Hi Wes: I was reading through the comments here, sorry I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but something caught me...
"The idea that the Holy Spirit only teaches existing Scripture is not the way that the vast majority of Christians view it. I'm not saying that you're wrong; just that it conflicts with the prevailing attitudes."
Do you really believe God cares about "prevailing attitudes?" This is definitely a cancerous way of thinking that is really eating away at the church. This truth of consensus is so wrong. God really could care less about who agrees and who doesn't, that is not what makes truth, His truth. Being His word is what makes truth His truth. So are you saying that these "prevailing attitudes" determine what truth is? Maybe I'm mis-reading what you mean....
Wes,
You had me going back through my comment and trying to see if I in any manner indicated that the Holy Spirit "only" used the written word to communicate with us some how. Well, I didn't say 'only'. Perhaps I should have said that the "primary" way the Holy Spirit communitates to/with us is rooted in the written word, on some level. Maybe that will clarify what I was trying to get across. If I had said that in the first place, you wouldn't have had to use so many words possibly disagreeing with something I didn't say. My bad!
What I was trying to say, in slightly different words, is that the written word, since it is God inspired truth, combined with our 'onboard' instructor, the Holy Spirit, is by far the most common and trustworthy source of guidance for this life. That, I think, pretty much goes without saying, or 'selbstverstandlich", (selfunderstood). It's just plain old good horse sense.
I hear the same thing you do all around me in Christian environments - a lot of "the Lord led me"-speak, as if there is something mysterious about it. A lot of the time, tllm-speak is accompanied with a certain lack of humility. (I used to live there). But then I read the book a few times, with much of that reading sans 'human' consensus, and did my knowledge of God and how He speaks to us increase!
"The idea that the Holy Spirit only teaches existing Scripture is not the way that the vast majority of Christians view it. I'm not saying that you're wrong; just that it conflicts with the prevailing attitudes."
Now that makes my simple brain cramp up. It sounds like you are saying that prevailing attitudes (human attitudes?) really matter. Is that like the truth by consensus thing? Even if "prevailing attitudes" are spot on with the truth of the written word, it's the word that contains truth and we are just agreeing with God.
And "prevailing attitudes" can be slightly off. Look at all the flat-earthers. On the spiritual side, if "prevailing attitudes" concerning the Gospel include human works for our justification and salvation, they are just plain disagreeing with scripture.
Nothing personal, just asking questions.
When I said "prevailing attitudes", I meant that this is what is being taught in churches all over the country. I made no judgement call about whether it was right or wrong; just that it is prevalent.
Gotcha,
Prevalent teachings in todsy's churches is that scripture isn't the only way the Holy Spirit communicates with us. Churches that teach that the Holy Spirit 'primarily' speaks to us through the writen word are scriptural. There are a lot of churches that over-emphasize subjective experience (feelings/inner leadings, etc), I am afraid.
Looks like Deb 'heard you saying the same thing I thought I heard. thanks for clarifying.
Wes,
As always...great post.
I shared this idea, of how do we discern the Holy Spirit with a couple of friends last night, one being the Director of Faith Formation at my church - equivalent of one of a Junior Pastor, if you will.
He echoed many of the sentiments already expressed:
1.) The Holy Spirit, will never ask you to do something that is contrary to revealed divine revelation.
That one makes sense, right? God will not go back on His Truth, so if He said it is unlawful for us to commit adultry, no matter how much you think that the Holy Spirit is leading you to have an extra-marrital affair, that is not the Holy Spirit leading.
2.) Only a prayerful person is able to discern the Holy Spirit.
Only if you spend enough time with God are you able to recognize His voice. You have to be in communion with God in order to distinguish between a God-thought and a me-thought. To be in communion with God is to spend more time with Him in prayer.
We had other discussions as well, that I think you would have loved to be a part of. Next time, maybe I will take some notes and send you the transcript...hehehehe
God bless...
Wes,
I think one of the major stumbling blocks in this discussion is the interpretation of John 16:5-15.
Does the Holy Spirit guide to truth? Definitely. But who? Who does the Holy Spirit guide into Truth? Everyone? If everyone is guided into Truth by the Holy Spirit, how are they guided? You have already recieved many suggestions, that seem to take on a common form:
They read the book? And we have the greatest book of all, written by an infallible author, so 'readable' even us regular folks can read it and understand the most important stuff.
If the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding everyone into Truth through Holy Scripture...then we have to say that the Holy Spirit is self-contradicting. Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Congregationalists, Unitarians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterian....they would all claim that they are following the Holy Spirit who is leading them into all areas of truth through the use of the Scriptures. If that is the case, then why are they contradicting each other on many things that seem to be very important - Baptism, Lords Supper, End Times? They are all reading the same Scriptures, right? (Well, most of them anyways). And according to this interpretation of scripture, they are all being led by the Holy Spirit, or as D.L. put it:
...with our 'onboard' instructor, the Holy Spirit...
So why the separation? Why the confusion? Why the contradiction?
Either the Truth that the Holy Spirit is leading all of them into is contradicting, or some people who think they are being led by the Holy Spirit, are not really being led. My vote would be for the second case.
Only if you spend enough time with God are you able to recognize His voice. You have to be in communion with God in order to distinguish between a God-thought and a me-thought. To be in communion with God is to spend more time with Him in prayer.
I mostly agree with you. It's interesting that we, myself included, choose to use the word "voice" when talking about this topic. I would venture a guess that none of us here are talking about an audible voice, so, it's really a figure of speech. But let's compare it to a voice for a moment. If D.L. or TNF were to call me on the phone tomorrow and say, "Hello, is Wes there?", I would say, "Uh, who is this?" because obviously I can't recognize their voice. Now, if my wife calls me on the phone, she doesn't even need to identify herself; she can just start talking and I'll know who it is. This was not always the case; if she had called me 10 years ago, I wouldn't have known her voice. The very first time I talked to her on the phone she said something to the effect of, "Hi Wes, this is Kristin" and my brain learned to associate her voice with her identity. I can now distinguish her voice from someone else's voice because of the distinct characteristics.
In my life, however, I have another interesting observation about voices. You would think that of all the people in this world, my own mother would know my voice, right? As it happens, my dad and I have almost the same voice, so much so, that if my mom can't see who is talking, she can't always tell us apart. Of course, if I call her "Mom", she immediately figures it out. My point is that we're not dealing with audible voices with different and unique pitches and tones, we're dealing with thoughts in our heads which all seem to "sound" the same. When someone learns to recognize the thoughts inspired by Holy Spirit, I highly doubt that they suddenly realize that, "Oh, you know those thoughts that have a deep baritone? That's God!"
Either the Truth that the Holy Spirit is leading all of them into is contradicting, or some people who think they are being led by the Holy Spirit, are not really being led.
It is most definitely the latter. Which is why I feel that it is important that Christians be instructed on how to distinguish between real, legitimate messages from the Holy Spirit and phony ones. However, I've yet to see any solid guidance on this matter, either here or in any church I've attended.
It is dangerous to leave this in the realm of subjective, personal judgment calls. I mean, if the Holy Spirit is a source to be relied upon when attempting to discover truth, then we need to have a reliable way to distinguish His messages from all the background noise. There should be some way to test it. Otherwise you end up with all sorts of false prophets claiming that the Holy Spirit told them something and you have no way of verifying their claim. I agree with both of you that the Bible is our "first line of defense" when examining these messages, but the Bible has limited scope in the topics that it covers; it doesn't address a number of issues that we encounter in our daily life.
Let me add a concrete example to the discussion. Around 5 years from now, my wife and I are going to have to make a choice of where to send our daughter to school. Our options, in order of how closely they mirrors our own beliefs, are: home schooling, christian school, charter school, and public school. The christian school option is attractive because our daughter could learn about God without placing a burden on my wife, but, as of right now, we simply can't afford it. Now, I doubt there is any specific verses in the Bible that apply to this situation, since state-funded education was unknown at the time the Bible was written. Seems like something I should ask God about, right? Now, what if, in the course of praying about it, the thought pops into my head: "If you step out in faith and send her to Christian school, the money will be there when it's needed." Is that God? Or is that me? How do I know? What happens if I follow that thought and it turns out to be my own idea of what seemed like the best solution? Do we "step out in faith" and end up in debt because it wasn't true? Or do I dismiss it as a "Me-thought" and miss out on God's blessing?
Carlus,
I've been reading and not interfering because I'm not a 'truth by consensus' guy. But I have to say it sounds like you are now trying to lead Wes straight to the Pope. You wouldn't do that would you?
born4battle,
Hey...long time no read.
But I have to say it sounds like you are now trying to lead Wes straight to the Pope. You wouldn't do that would you?
Just trying to provide answers to another brother-in-Christ...that is all....
God bless...
"And according to this interpretation of scripture, they are all being led by the Holy Spirit"
They are all being led by the same Holy Spirit! The same Holy Spirit indwells every believer. the Holy Spirit seems to have been given to individuals, not specific 'churches'.
Problem is, we have a tendency to still go our own way sometimes instead os where we are being led.On some issues, we do things a little differently in different denominations, but it seems like we agree on the essentials of our faith.
That fellow Paul seemed to think that the biggest issue is about the gospel message being all about being justified by faith alone - at least he repeated it a lot. that theme is all over the place!
To keep us on track and on the original topic, let me emphasize that the issue of whether the Holy Spirit guides us or not, is not at stake here; the evidence in the Bible seems to confirm that this does occur.
Instead, the question is about how the Holy Spirit leads us, and how do we recognize it when it happens.
In short, my questions go like this:
1. Do you believe the Holy Spirit co-exists with your own spirit in your human body?
2. If yes, do you believe that the Holy Spirit "speaks" to the believer?
3. If yes, is this communication internal or external? i.e. does the Holy Spirit communicate with you via thoughts in your mind or an audible voice that other people could hear if they were near enough?
4. If you said "internal", by what means does someone distinguish between their own personal thoughts and the thoughts that come from the Holy Spirit?
D.L.,
The same Holy Spirit indwells every believer.
I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit does truly exist in every individual. I also agree with the point that Wes is making, is that it is very easy to attribute your Me-Thought as a God-Thought. People believe that they are being led by the Holy Spirit, when in fact, it is not the Holy Spirit that is leading them at all.
Regarding different denominations...
but it seems like we agree on the essentials of our faith.
??? This is pre-supposing that there are actually essentials versus non-essentials. I have looked all over Scripture in order to find the difference between an essential belief and a non-essential belief, and I have yet to find one. What makes up an essential vs. a non-essential belief? If God has revealed something, doesn't that mean, by definition, that it is essential? Regardless, the fact that the different denominations disagree, come to completely contradicting conclusions, means that the Holy Spirit is either leading them into all areas of contradiction instead of truth, or at least one of them is not being led by the Holy Spirit at all. But how do you know?
That fellow Paul seemed to think that the biggest issue is about the gospel message being all about being justified by faith alone - at least he repeated it a lot. that theme is all over the place!
This proves too many points. You are reading the Scriptures and coming to a conclusion that I do not completely agree with. You would say that you are being led by the Holy Spirit. I would say that I am being led by the Holy Spirit. So what do we do? How do we determine who is being led by God-thoughts and who is being led by Me-thoughts?
Using the method that I suggested earlier, and I think that you would agree, I would say that we would have to go back to what has been divinely revealed. The thought that contradicts what has already been divinely revealed, is the Me-thought and not the God-thought.
...of course this opens up another rabbit hole, that I am going to avoid, as to what has been Divinely Revealed.
God bless...
Weston,
In short, my questions go like this:
1. Do you believe the Holy Spirit co-exists with your own spirit in your human body?
Yes.
2. If yes, do you believe that the Holy Spirit "speaks" to the believer?
Yes.
3. If yes, is this communication internal or external? i.e. does the Holy Spirit communicate with you via thoughts in your mind or an audible voice that other people could hear if they were near enough?
Both. Externally through Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church.
4. If you said "internal", by what means does someone distinguish between their own personal thoughts and the thoughts that come from the Holy Spirit?
If it contradicts any divinely revealed revelation, then it is a Me-thought.
If it does not contradict any divine revelation, it becomes little trickier.
You have to spend time in prayer and communion with God in order to recognize his voice / leading (and yes, by voice I mean a figure of speech). Without being in communion with God, it is hopeless to distinguish.
God bless...
Hi Wes,
Thanks for breaking it down... your posts are quite lengthy, and very informative, but this helps.
1. Do you believe the Holy Spirit co-exists with your own spirit in your human body? Yes.
2. If yes, do you believe that the Holy Spirit "speaks" to the believer? Yes
3. If yes, is this communication internal or external? i.e. does the Holy Spirit communicate with you via thoughts in your mind or an audible voice that other people could hear if they were near enough?
I'm sure 4 will be included as well.... what is kinda strange to me is that you are separating one of the Trinity to ask if He speaks to us. God's Word tells us that His sheep will know His voice, it takes time in prayer, time to be quiet and still in prayer, and through time learning to recognize His voice. The easiest way for me to describe how I know the difference is, the enemy whispers in my ear, or puts thoughts in my mind that may be contrary to what God's Word says. Just like in the Garden, the difference may be subtle, but it is still contrary to God and His Word, so I discount it. When God speaks, it is through my entire being. There is no mistaking it.
Those who hear God's voice are people who belong to Him. Reminds me of bank tellers who are trained to recognize when a counterfeit bill is being passed. We should be so familiar with God's Word that when God does speak to us or lead us, it is clear that it is He who is speaking. God speaks to us in several venues. Yes I believe He speaks through the Holy Spirit into our being. He CAN speak audibly to people if He so chooses.... He's God. He speaks to us that we may understand truth. He speaks through His word, through circumstances, through other people, I've even had Him speak to me through the radio. The important thing is to apply what we think we hear to the truth of Scripture, and by doing so, we can learn to recognize His voice.
Ok, so let's bring this out of the theoretical and into real life.
(And these questions are for everyone, not just TNF)
Can you recognize God's voice?
If yes, can you give an example of when God communicated something to you?
If you have an example, what was the experience like? What did God "sound" like?
How did you know it was Him?
The strong message that I'm getting from all of this is that there isn't a definite way. It's left up to "just keep reading the Bible and praying and you'll just know it when it happens to you." I've been reading the Bible and praying my entire life and I've never heard God speak to me in any recognizable way. So that means that either a) God has never said anything to me, b) I'm going about it wrong, or c) He has communicated with me but I've never been properly taught to recognize it.
This idea that you'll know it when it happens makes me very uncomfortable because it is left up to personal interpretation and it's been often hammered into me around here that truth is not about personal interpretation.
The other problem with this is that it leaves no way for an outside observer to evaluate any claims a believer might make. It brings all discussions to an impasse. I was recently talking with a friend who talked about a pastor who had declared that the Holy Spirit had "led" him to go to another church. How can you argue with that? How can you say no? You're forced to accept whatever the person says. What if I (hypothetically), in my Seeker Friendly blog post, had said that the Holy Spirit had told me flat out that God wants churches to follow the "seeker friendly" paradigm? How would you have argued against me?
Wes,
The other problem with this is that it leaves no way for an outside observer to evaluate any claims a believer might make.
You can know for sure that God did not talk to someone if the message contradicted any divine revelation.
The hard part, is definitely if it is something that does not contradict divine revelation. At that point, you don't have to believe someone when they say that God told me such-and-such. You either can choose to or not choose to.
Wes: When you boil it down, it's between you and God. Do I need to run off a bunch of examples? No, and I don't intend to. Out of your choices, I think I would choose C)He has communicated with me but I've never been properly taught to recognize it. But your walk is not dependent on others Wes. Someone didn't do something, so therefore.... no.
God's Word says His sheep will know His voice. John 10:27 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." This is where I started. His Word says it, I began to believe it, I started seeking Him out and asking Him to show me, teach me. Not another human being. He will, He is faithful. It will be specific, just for you, our relationships with Him even though we worship and serve corporately, are very individual.
Hmmmmm....reading all this, it looks like D.L. has pretty much answered answered most of those questions with his "read the Book, will ya?!!" attitude, for which I have great fondness. Maybe you missed it, Wes, or maybe you are wearing blinders - that's not for me to say. But I will say with the authority of scripture behind me, that as long as you think that a consensus of flawed people,sinners saved by grace and still flawed, and NOT the God-breathed infallibly inspired written word of God,is the best we can do to know truth, you will be stumbling around in the dark, my friend.
B4B,
So, apparently you didn't get the response you were looking for with your first comment, so you're trying to bait us again.
Ok, I'll bite. I challenge you to show me in the Bible where I can find the answer to the questions I've posed. Specifically, I want a description of how the Holy Spirit operates. Don't bother pointing me to verses that say he does guides us; I already quoted one.
b4b,
Maybe you missed it, Wes, or maybe you are wearing blinders...
..or maybe we just don't completely agree, or find the answer less than complete. Reading the Scriptures is beneficial, but at the same time, people have been led straight into heresy by reading the scriptures, thinking that they were following the Holy Spirit. So there has to be more to it than that.
But I will say with the authority of scripture behind me, that as long as you think that a consensus of flawed people,sinners saved by grace and still flawed, and NOT the God-breathed infallibly inspired written word of God,is the best we can do to know truth, you will be stumbling around in the dark, my friend.
Amazing!!! Don't you see the contradiction. According to your logic, you are basically saying that you cannot arrive at the truth by concensus. Instead, we should rely on the infallible Word of God...which was identified by what.......concensus.
So if truth obtained by concensus is like stumbling around in the dark, then you are also guilty of stumbling around in the dark since you are basing your faith on a collection of books identified by a consensus of flawed people,sinners saved by grace and still flawed, ...
God bless...
Well Carlus, we've been there before (quite exhaustively) so I won't go there again. this is Wes' blog and I just stopped by to alert him to your propensity to try and turn everyone 'home to Rome'.
b4b,
Well Carlus, we've been there before (quite exhaustively) so I won't go there again. this is Wes' blog and I just stopped by to alert him to your propensity to try and turn everyone 'home to Rome'.
I have been open with the fact that I am Catholic to everyone here. D.L. knows it, Wes knows it, Kyra knows it....you and TnF definitely know it.
Regardless....if you believe in something, and someone asks you a question, we are supposed to answer it. Wes is asking what we all think. I am sharing with I think. That's all.
God bless...
(reposting the above comment. Something about posting from my iPod messed up the formatting.)
That would be rather futile, Wes, since you don't seem to believe that the written word contains truth that speaks for itself.
Excuse me? Don't tell me what I believe and don't believe. I wrote an entire article on what I believe on how to discover truth. Neither you nor B4B posted any comments disagreeing with what I said. I laid it out very plainly; to represent that I don't "believe that the written word contains truth that speaks for itself" is just trumped up hogwash.
All of this, and the finger-pointing at Carlus, is simply a ploy to distract from the fact that neither you nor B4B can answer the question, because, if you really had an issue with my view of truth, you would have brought it up when that was the explicit topic. At least have the guts to admit when you don't have the answer.
You also cannot see that Carlus is trying to lead you 'home' to Rome.
I'm a big boy; I can look out for myself, thank you. If Carlus is trying to convert me to Catholicism, he's got his work cut out for him. However, he's not; he's simply laying out his own views on the matters that we discuss. I am not so insecure in my beliefs that I cannot cope with an opposing viewpoint. He could be an avowed atheist or even a practicing satanist for all I care; I will still listen to his viewpoint and examine it rationally, rather than resort to hysterics and prejudiced name calling. I value an alternative viewpoint greatly because it does one of two things; either opens my eyes to where my beliefs are incorrect or incomplete or solidifies my own beliefs because they withstand the challenge.
Wes: This was interesting to me. " I want a description of how the Holy Spirit operates. Don't bother pointing me to verses that say he does guides us; I already quoted one." This indicates to me that you are not satisfied with the fact that God's Word says that the HS operates and communicates... maybe i read that wrong. But if not, that's where our faith and pursuing kick in.
Anyway, I read a VERY long commentary recently about the Holy Spirit... I have copied a section for you that I hope will help you in your quest.
"The scriptures inform us that such is the manner or mode of the
Holy Spirit's communication. 2 Samuel 23:2, reads, "The Spirit of
Jehovah spake by me, and his word was upon my tongue." Thus the Holy
Spirit communicated through David. David became the Spirit's
spokesman. This, he did by speaking. The communication was
accomplished by words. David's tongue was the instrument by which the
communication was accomplished. Listen to 1 Timothy 4:1, "But the
Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from
the faith..." The King James version of this passage is, "Now the
Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart
from the faith..." The Spirit thus informed of impending apostasy.
How did He do that? Through speaking. By what means was this
revelation accomplished? Through words. How did the Spirit
communicate to Paul the message these words contain? By speaking
"expressly," that is, plainly and clearly.
It is essential that mankind understand this obvious biblical
truth regarding the manner or mode of the Holy Spirit's influence. If
people can understand that the only way in which the Holy Spirit ever
did influence is through intelligent communication involving the use
of words, no longer will the denominational concept that the Holy
Spirit leads, guides and directs through one's hunches, one's
intimations, one's so-called inner feelings, be acceptable. Let me
make it as crystal clear as possible. How does the Holy Spirit
communicate unto man??? Through words. Jesus said, "He that hath an
ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches" (Revelation
2:11).
The Holy Spirit has communicated to man through selected and
inspired disciples. Hear the apostle Paul on this: "But unto us God
revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all
things, yea, the deep things of God. For who among us knoweth the
things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so
the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God...Which things
also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth; but which
the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words"
(1 Corinthians 2:10-13)."
I think I'll wait for the next topic. I think I'm about talked out on this subject...
Let me explain to you all why this topic is so important to me and hopefully at the same time illustrate how dangerous it is.
I grew up in a fairly conservative "Calvinist" Christian environment. However, during my senior year of High School, I met two men that shook up my world. You see, the one believed with certainty that the other, who was a pastor, was a modern day prophet. This pastor had a "direct line" to God; he could ask Him things and get very specific answers.
Now, as you can imagine, I had never encountered anything like this before and the churches I grew up in had certainly not prepared me to respond to such a thing. However, in my understanding of the Bible, it was certainly not an impossibility; the Bible is loaded with examples of God speaking directly to His people.
So I decided to wait and watch. The two of them relayed some pretty amazing messages from God. Ranging from the mundane, like what color car I should buy, to the life changing, like helping me start my own computer consulting business. I should add, that during this time, they never told me anything that conflicted with what the Bible taught.
One day, they revealed to me a message from God about the thing my heart desired most; they told me the specific name of the woman I was going to marry ("Diana", if you're curious) and that I was supposed to meet her within 2 years. (I didn't know anyone named Diana) I still was unsure what to think of all this, but there wasn't much to lose, so I decide to wait and see.
Two years passed, and no sign of Diana (I still don't know anyone by that name) I asked them why she had not appeared as predicted. Their answer was that my lack of faith had blocked God's blessing. Finally I had the means to determine the truth. I knew two things from reading the Bible: 1) If God makes a promise, He keeps it. Period. It doesn't hinge upon how much or little faith you have. 2) A prophet of God cannot be wrong if he is speaking God's words.
It was then that I made a very difficult decision; I walked away from it all. I lost my business in the process. I knew that if one thing was untrue then I had no way of knowing what else was untrue.
However, to this day, there are still questions in my mind. Was any of it from God? I mean, did he start out getting messages and somehow lose his way? If the information didn't come from God, where did it come from? If I had stuck around, would I have met Diana eventually? What would I have done if I had met her and had absolutely no interest in her? Marry her simply because God told me to? Why can't I talk to God like that pastor did? Does God even talk to anyone in this way anymore?
Why are we not able, as a church, to instruct people how to discern true leading from God from what is counterfeit? If we leave these concepts as unknown, we leave our fellow believers vulnerable to things such as these. If I had not been strong and determined to seek the truth, then I might still be following their leading.
Wes, I feel like my respect and understanding of you has jumped about 10 notches. Your being this transparent is wonderful and I want to thank you so much for being this real. It's not always easy. But it helps to understand maybe how to help you a little bit, and share a few things....so thanks. I am going to write some things to you in the morning, and yes I will share a couple of examples of when I know God spoke to me directly, and how I know it was Him. This is very important, but my brain is mush.... so i'll see you in the morning. And again, kuddos for bein' real. ;o)
Ok, so it is not exactly morning, sorry, life is happening....
I think there is a two-fold happening here. Not only do you need to learn to discern God's voice (which I have every confidence you will) but you also need to pray for discernment for false prophets etc. The enemy would love nothing more that to have you give up on everyone because you have experienced what appears to be a couplea phonies.
Christ warned us that the false Christs and false prophets would come and attempt to deceive us, God's elect. Look at Matthew 24:23-27, 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18. Your best and biggest weapon against these two groups of people, is to know truth. I mentioned the banker thing before....and to spot a counterfeit you have to study and know the real. Some, as you say, are difficult to tell. Think about how subtle the enemies switch of scripture was in the Garden. When someone prophesies to me, if I don't know them very, very well... I usually put it on the shelf. It's hard alot of times because the enemy will use people to speak to our deepest desires sometimes, and we can waste alot of time wasting time, if that becomes our main focus. Also, it says the enemy can pose as an angel of light...so now we're back to , how do we tell the difference???
Well first of all, study the books of the Bible that were written specifically to combat false teaching and prophecy. Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 & 2 John and Jude.
I know you are familiar with 1 Thess 5:21 "Test everything; hold on to the good". So let me tell you a time that I know He spoke to me... cause I know, cause I know.... I hope it helps.
The first thing I would say about this (and since I have learned to recognize His voice there have been MANY times. It is a learning process so be patient with yourself and know that HE will show you) is that what He spoke to me was the FURTHEST thing from my mind. There was one time when I was driving down a four lane highway. It was dark and rainy, and I was late to lead worship for a communion service. BIG hurry, totally distracted to get to the church. I passed a little white car, couldn't see who was in it, but immediately the "Lord spoke" to me, go back and help. My response? You have got to be kidding me.... was that you? I got to the stop light, and the ONLY thing I could hear, feel, think about was to go back to that white car. Ok, so I'm late to lead a couple of hundred people, it's dark, rainy, and I'm alone in my car, suppose to go back 3/4 of a mile or so and help the white car. It was so overwhelming to do this, I didn't really have a choice. So I made the U turn, went around and pulled up behind the car. I called ahead, and told the church I was late, and got nervous as I got out of my car. I said, "Lord, I need a sign here that this is You cause I'm nervous"... I got up to the car, and in the back seat was a Bible. All my nerves calmed, in the front seat was a hysterical woman. She rolled her window down a bit, she was petrified having run out of gas, forgot her phone. I calmed her down a bit, went and got her gas and she headed on her way. I stopped by my house, changed my clothes and walked up to start worship, and guess who was in the front row? She told me afterwards of an incredible story of a day, and needless to say, I knew God had used me in this circumstance, and yes I had heard Him.
cont....
Now as far as what happened with you, you asked "Why are we not able, as a church, to instruct people how to discern true leading from God from what is counterfeit?" yet where in the Bible does it say we are to do that? All it says is that He will be faithful to help us discern, again it is not up to other people, it is up to us as individuals with individual relationships with God to learn to discern. Look at it this way. I seriously doubt that how God speaks to me is going to be how He speaks to you. He knows each of us intimately, so He's going to speak to each of His children differently. I raised a couple of boys. They had very different personalities, so i treated each on with that difference in mind. It is the same with God. That's why it really doesn't matter how He speaks to someone else. Secondly, what would cause more growth in you and faith? If I told you my experiences and you waited for that to happen? or if you had your own personal experiences and saw the difference.... because when you do, and I mean WHEN you do, there will never be mistaking it again. So talk to Him. Read what He's left us to know the difference, and then talk to Him. Ask Him to hear His voice and to teach you the difference. He will... sometimes He just wants us to stop depending on other people and their experiences, and depend completely on Him.
As far as the Diana thing, discard it, God doesn't lie, it didn't happen, it was false. Let the rest go, and I thank God that He protected you from that. It would have been worse if you would have met someone that SOUNDED like Diana, like Deanna...UGH. But it was false, true prophets have 100 accuracy.... Hope something in there helps.... Keep seeking Him out...
triednotfried,
nicely done...
God bless
Triednotfried, I loved, loved, loved your example. It made me think of the many times where I have experienced God's leading, or God speaking to me. And you are so right, we each have an individual, intimate relationship with God and He speaks to each of us differently.
So maybe I could indulge here a little and share an instance where God has spoken to me? This example, Weston, is one that I know is close to your heart. See if you know what I mean...
So a few years ago I had this friend. I loved her to death, and I thought we were pretty close. My husband was good friends with her husband. We spent a lot of time together as couples when we were first married. But eventually things changed. Loooonnggg story short, my friend had an affair and left her husband.
The aftermath of the divorce tore me up. I didn't know how to handle the situation in the least, and with everything else going on in our life at the time, God's voice was buried deep under a bunch of "crap". So without consideration for God's leading, I did what I thought I should do. I hung onto my friendship with this girl, and I hurt A LOT of people by doing so. I hurt myself, I hurt my husband, I hurt her ex-husband, I hurt his new wife, I hurt their entire family, and I even hurt her by not being what I should have been to her. This went on for quite some time until we lost (pushed away) many people very dear to us.
However, no matter what I did or how I tried to justify her friendship to myself, I could not have peace about this situation. When I was with my unrepentant friend, I felt nothing but guilt. For nearly a year my thought life was pretty consumed by the whole thing. So finally, finally I prayed and asked God "what would you have me do, Lord?" From that point on, every conversation, every sermon, every devotional, every book I read, and nearly every dream convicted me. If I would just admit what I did wrong, apologize, set things right, and confront my unrepentant friend, then I would once again be right with God. It wasn't easy, and it took God speaking to me for many months for me to finally see what He wanted me to do, but when I finally listened and obeyed, there was that "peace like a river" that has been promised to us.
On my own, without really listening, with only my thoughts taken into consideration, I made a mess. Did I want to hurt anyone? No. But I was only listening to "me-thoughts".
I could come up with many more examples... for instance, the way God led us to choose to adopt (He worked through circumstances and conviction), or all the dreams I had about meeting a man that had already been married right before I met my husband (who was married once before). Triednotfried is right, God will speak to you in a way that He's knows you will listen. James tells us to ask for wisdom and it will be granted to you. I believe that wisdom comes from our trials and how we let God lead us through them.
Kyra,
Thank you for sharing your story. Nothing is a greater example of God's power than the witness of His believers.
Kyra, I love your story as well. =) This "God's voice was buried deep under a bunch of "crap"." cracked me up. It's was like that recently for me as well, but He tends to break through in His perfect timing. My name is Deborah by the way, it just won't allow me to send my comments that way. =)
I think the easiest way for me to begin recognizing that He was communicating with me, is to stop believing in coincidence. Even in the blogging world, God will send the people to love you to and through to the next step of your walk with Him.... Then there is the whole Hebrews 12 thing about being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses... do we want to go there???? ;-)
Deborah, have you heard the song "Cloud of Witnesses" by Mark Schultz? It makes me cry. Very good song. What about the cloud of witnesses would you like to discuss? At Word of Life we studied it and I have gathered from the scriptures that the cloud of witnesses is simply the believers we are surrounded by. Thoughts?
Weston, has any of this helped you at all? More questions? You've hit on what I think is the most intimate part of our walk with Christ, so it's difficult for any one of us to say "God is speaking to you in this way". You know what I mean?
Another note... my name is actually Kara. :-)
Kara....
Whoops....my bad. I thought it was Kyra.
My mom and I used to attend a church called Word of Faith. But, that was in the Detroit area. I am a little familiar with what they believe, "speak it and receive it" right? Just curious...
...we studied it and I have gathered from the scriptures that the cloud of witnesses is simply the believers we are surrounded by.
"Cloud of Witnesses"...hmmm....that would be a great talk. At the same time, when coming to a conclusion about that verse Hebrews 12:1, my interpretation of this passage changed recently, especially considering that it starts off with "Therefore...". Whenever a verse starts off with therefore, it is the ending of a complete thought. Which of course in order to understand the true context I had to go back to Hebrews 11. This was a turning point in how I interpreted the verse personally, and had a huge impact on something that I questioned and didn't believe for a number of years.
God bless...
LOL, looks like we get to hijack Wes' blog til' he returns.... fun!
Kara: I love Mark Shultz. His voice is amazing and love His heart for the Lord. I posted his "I AM" at my blog for the weekend. I hadn't heard Cloud of WItnesses, but found it MP3 online. Beautiful!
I was just talking with another friend about the "cloud of witnesses" recently, so it's kind of typical of my life lately how the topic came up again. I have some specific thoughts about it, basically what you have said. I don't think it would be in God's Word were it not true. And, as always, I think there is a specific purpose for that reminder. Anyway, don't want to get into too deep of a discussion unless we have Wes' approval.... but it would be a fun topic....
Wes! Where'd ya go???? Has any of this helped??? We're waiting for you!!!!
Carlus, Word of Life is actually Word of Life Bible Institute in Schroon Lake, NY. I attended there for a year. It's named "Word of Life" because they study THE Word of Life (God's Word). No "name it, claim it" beliefs here. :-) We had classes like Theology and Old Testament Survey, and we also took two-three weeks to study each book of the Bible in depth. We had teachers like Charles Ryrie, who wrote the notes for the Ryrie Study Bible, Ken Ham, Warren Wiersby, etc. These are all men that are very grounded in the word. It was an awesome, awesome experience!
I think Weston will be back soon!
Kara,
Are you saying that you have a degree in theology? Did you get an opportunity to study the Early Church at all, or were classes strictly based in Scripture?
I do not have a degree. You can only get a "certificate of completion" at Word of Life. And actually, I don't even have the certificate because I came to the year late and missed a few classes. Took me awhile to realize it was where I needed to be. But all the classes I took helped me earn my degree at Cornerstone University.
We did study the early church. I have a feeling I know why you asked that. :-) Church History was a month long class, and I still have the book.
Kara,
We did study the early church. I have a feeling I know why you asked that. :-) Church History was a month long class, and I still have the book.
Who did you learn about? I have studied the following folks:
Clement of Rome
Ignatius of Antioch
Justin Martyr (this is actually who my profile image is of)
Irenaeus of Lyons....
I had no idea that these folks even existed let alone their writings survived up to today.
I am definitely curious to know who you studied and what you thought of them, and if they should have any impact or bearing on someone's Christian beliefs today. If so, why and if not why not.
Kara,
Also curious as to what you think the reason is I asked.... ;)
Sorry everyone that I've been absent. I got word that a friend from childhood has a brain tumor and isn't expected to live more than a year longer and that really derailed my brain for a while. And then my wife and I took an extended weekend vacation with Kara and her husband and we were away from Internet-connected technology.
Oh, by the way, for the rest of you reading Kara's story, I can tell you, as Paul Harvey used to say, "the rest of the story". She kept it generic, but I don't mind people knowing. Her "unrepentant friend" that had an affair? That was my ex-wife.
I've been analyzing the stories that have been shared and I've pulled out some common elements that they share:
1. The messages that are received are contrary to your desire or will, sometimes even actively resisted.
2. The messages are repeated more than once. It's something that you can't put out of your mind.
3. If the thoughts prompt you to action, the action is of a good and moral nature, i.e. help someone in need, reconcile with a friend, etc.
4. The outcome of the actions is good and positive.
I want to say that if these elements are present, that you can be relatively confident that God is actively nudging you. Do you agree? Should I add anything?
However, I wonder how to handle cases where one of those elements are missing or even reversed? So, for example:
1. What if the message you received is in accordance with your own will or desires? How do you differentiate between your will and God's leading? So, in my example from earlier about education for our daughter, how can I tell whether it is truly God speaking to me, or my own will masquerading as God's voice?
2. Should we discard any thought that only pops up once?
3. What about messages that don't prompt you to action or the action is neither moral or immoral? i.e. moving to a different state, selecting a profession, etc.
4. What if the outcome is bad, painful, or unpleasant? So, for example, Deb if you had been beaten up and robbed when you approached the car, would you still have attributed the leading to God's voice?
As far as my experience with the phony prophet goes, yes, I know now that most of it was false. However, it wasn't until they said something that violated my knowledge of the Bible that I could really tell for sure; I just wasn't equipped by the church to handle the situation. If they had never said anything that could be specifically demonstrated as incorrect or I didn't have as much Bible education, then it would have been really easy for their tiny cult to swallow me right up.
I want to bring this topic to the forefront so that we talk about in our churches and maybe even teach new Christians how to discern so that they don't get caught in the trap that I almost was. You've said that in order to discern God's leading, one needs to spend a lot of time with God. I can accept this. However, this leads me to the question, what if you haven't spent enough time with God? Should we teach new Christians to not follow those promptings until they have spent more time in the Word? i.e. if someone who became a Christian a month ago says, "God led me to...", should we warn them against saying that? Should they consult someone who is more mature in the faith and ask them to help them to ask God about the matter?
Hi Wes: I'm sorry for your friend and will be praying for him. I am also sorry you had to suffer an unfaithful spouse... praying for you as well.
I think I would add to your first four points that it is NEVER contrary to what God teaches in His Word, or I guess a better way of saying that would be, it always line up with His Word.
As for your other points, I think I would answer as follows:
1. Proverbs 16:9 "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps." This verse is ingrained on my brain for things like you mention about your daughter. When my boys were young, I wanted them to attend a Christian school. Without going into details, the Lord simply did not provide the means for them to go. I grieved over the fact that they attended public school. GRIEVED. Until the Lord, began to show me that it is His plan that needs to be executed, not mine. His plan, whether it is in our own lives, or the lives of our loved ones and kiddos, is whatever will bring Him the most Glory. He protected my boys all through school... they were witnesses for Him, and more than prepared to be in this world we live in while not being a part of it. I doubt if they would have been that prepared had they have been in a private school. But that was their destiny, and their plan that God had for their lives. I just didn't understand it at the time. When it came right down to it, I needed to be praying, "Whatever brings you the most Glory from their lives Lord"... not "This is what I want". He was very faithful in doing just that. You can pretty much apply that scripture to anything you struggle with. Take that initiative with an openness for Him to guide your steps.
2. I would. There is nothing wrong, and it is NOT testing God when you ask for verification and confirmation when God tells you something. As long as your heart is not one of disbelief, but one of humbly seeking His will..... He'll honor that.
3. I would answer that the same way as I did 1. We are not robots, and I pray for closed doors. There are just too many open ones to make an effective decision.
4. That's kinda like asking if God can make a rock to big for Him to lift? He wouldn't. God is my protector. If He chose to allow that for me, am I going to not be obedient because I might get beat up? No way. That is living a life of fear, not faith. I was leery and asked Him for a sign, within seconds He gave me one. Are we to avoid pain and suffering as we serve anyway? I think we need to read about what people go through every day for Christ. That really should not be a factor when serving.
""God led me to...", should we warn them against saying that? Should they consult someone who is more mature in the faith and ask them to help them to ask God about the matter?"
No, and here's why. Your dependance needs to fully rely on God... never people. Encourage instead to step out in faith, and let God do the teaching in this area. Fear of mistakes should never prevent you from stepping out, your gonna make them. But learn from them, and let God take you and teach you at His pace. He will.
Carlus, well... good questions, but I'm not sure I can answer them fully right now. We did study the three men you mentioned, as well as others. But, I was 19 years old, very new to my faith, and quite overwhelmed with the class. We shoved 2,000 years of history in a month, so unfortunately, not a lot "stuck". One thing we talked about that I do remember is the canonizing of the scriptures. We questioned why some writings were included and some were not. The writings of the men you mentioned were included in that discussion. So, cheers to you, because at some point this weekend I am going to go out to my garage, pull out my church history book and see if I can find my notes from the class. I'll get back with you on what I find.
I had a feeling you would ask because I assumed that since you are converting or did convert to Catholicism that you have a very deep interest in the early church and would be interested in discussing it with someone else who has actually studied it. The early church also acted as government, which is where I believe things began to become corrupt and eventually led Martin Luther to pound the 99 thesis into that door. We could have a very deep conversation on here about this, but that would be hijacking Wes' blog, so perhaps I should move over to your and post my thoughts somewhere and then we can discuss. Sound good? Let me know if I'm wrong in the reason for why you asked me about my studies of the early church.
Wes,
I will keep your friend in my prayers.
Go ahead and hijack away. I want this blog to be a place of free discussion, as long as it doesn't devolve into petty arguments. Plus, I'm interested in the topic also.
If you want it to be a top-level post, I'm willing do that, but I haven't done enough homework to write anything of any substance, so it would be just a placeholder for the comment thread.
Just a suggestion... but if you started another entry we wouldn't have to scroll down 55 comments... =) Doesn't have to be long, maybe just a "Here ya go"...
I think another post would be a good idea. Then we can continue the discussion on the Holy Spirit and start a new one on the early church as well.
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